BEYOND
"Welcome to BEYOND—where denying your GREATNESS is a thing of the past, and next-level confidence, success, and purpose are the standard.
I am Katie Lynn, Identity Expert, host, and your personal hype-woman.
I am here to inspire you out of your comfort zone.
This is the moment you re-design your life and unlock the greatness that’s already inside you.
Because your next level? It’s not ‘one day’—it’s TODAY.
Let’s go BEYOND."
BEYOND
Ep 38 Vulnerability as a Business Superpower with Jen Underwood
What if the very thing you've been taught to hide is actually your greatest strength? In this transformative conversation with vulnerability expert Jen Underwood, we explore how embracing vulnerability—especially in business—creates deeper connections, more authentic relationships, and ultimately greater success than playing it safe ever could.
As two self-described Enneagram Eights who naturally resist showing weakness, Jen and I dive into how vulnerability becomes a genuine superpower when we learn to harness it properly. "Business is another relationship," Jen explains, challenging the false separation between professional success and personal authenticity that keeps many entrepreneurs stuck in surface-level achievement without satisfaction.
The most revolutionary insight? Conflict might actually be good for us. Rather than avoiding disagreements, Jen reveals how moments of rupture offer unprecedented opportunities for growth and connection—if we've built the emotional resilience to navigate them productively. She compares this to physical training: "You don't just get up and run a half marathon. You'd start by walking around the block a couple of times." Building our "emotional cardio" allows us to experience vulnerability without the harm that comes from diving in unprepared.
For those craving more depth and meaning in both business and life, this conversation offers practical wisdom about moving beyond the "Instagram life"—those achievements that look impressive but feel hollow—toward genuine fulfillment. The vulnerability work isn't always comfortable, but as Jen beautifully articulates, it leads to experiences "so good that you wouldn't know to even ask for them."
Connect with Jen Underwood at JenUnderwoodLeadership.com or find her on Instagram @JenUnderwoodLeadership to learn more about transforming vulnerability into your greatest asset.
For inquiries email: katie@katielynnrojano.com
Receive FREE access to the Power Process when you leave a 5 star review! Just screen shot a photo of your review and email it to katie@katielynnrojano.com
If you share the episode on IG please tag me! @katielynnrojano
All links for products mentioned can be found at the link in my bio on IG.
If you are interested in coaching with Katie Lynn please complete this form: https://w57ffpcqbll.typeform.com/to/PIzZ8uGg
Hello, my friend, and welcome to Beyond the personal growth podcast for the people who are healing beyond their conditioning and beyond the cycles that played out before them. My name is Katie Lynn and, with 20 years of experience in the field of psychology and human behavior, I am bringing my natural curiosity, expertise and personal life experiences here for discussions that are guaranteed to be informative, inspiring and entertaining. I'm glad you're here. Let's get started. Today on the podcast, I have the incredible Jen Underwood, who literally fell, I think, from the heavens. If I had to identify the way that she showed up in my world, into my Facebook timeline, and I jumped in immediately to begin learning from her and experiencing her work. And really, what Jen has shown herself to be about is vulnerability, and particularly vulnerability in business, vulnerability in content creation, and so, jen, thank you so much for being here. I'm so grateful to have you.
Speaker 2:I am so happy to be here. I think that's my favorite way that anyone's ever come into my world. So Facebook timeline.
Speaker 1:Yes, Thank you to the Facebook timeline for just connecting us right. The algorithm did its thing that day.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it works because it does. The algorithm did its thing that day. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does, so that's in our favor.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so you know, I thought this the work that you're creating in the world and giving so generously of yourself, and is this vulnerability conversation and really within the context of vulnerability as a superpower and a strength, particularly in business, which had my ears perk up, because if you would have told me this eight, 10, even five years ago, I would have done like that, huh, like what you know vulnerability, this is business. I came into business so I didn't have to be vulnerable, jen. So what are you saying? And so for me, when I heard vulnerability and people used to say, katie, you got to be vulnerable, katie, maybe you should be more vulnerable, I felt like a three-year-old whose parent was like you just have to tie your shoes, and I'm like, well, that's cute and I would love to tie my shoes, but I have no idea where to even begin with that. So can you tell us more about vulnerability as a superpower and your work?
Speaker 2:So for you or anyone who knows about the Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram eight, which is definitely the least vulnerable of all the Enneagram numbers. Like our superpower is to deny that vulnerability exists basically.
Speaker 1:Same same. In fact, I had an awakening, like maybe a year and a half ago, that I'm like I thought I was a three, yeah. And then I was like oh no, this rage here, this rage here this is eight.
Speaker 2:This is eight written all over it. I wonder that's why I was like I just have this feeling that you and me might be kind of similar on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like no, no, no, like vulnerability is a weakness, emotions are weakness, like we don't show that to people. And about 10 plus years ago, at this point I was like okay, there are a lot of things that are not working in my life and I got to figure this out Right, and I got to break it down. And at that point I was already. I was a therapist, I had master's in counseling, I had like done all this studying work, but not a lot of personal work, and I went through a series of different modalities and trainings and workshops and then found this one particular group where it was like the most horrifically vulnerable thing you could do, like pull that out and show everyone. And I was like these people are crazy. Yes, and then the more I did it, I was like I feel better.
Speaker 2:And that's really interesting and so that kind of like that kickstarted my journey and and a lot of it was just that was like relational work, right, like how do you just like be a better friend and be a better?
Speaker 2:lover and a lot of it was just that was like relational work, right like, how do you just like be a better friend and be a better lover and a better partner and a better parent? And a lot of my work is still in that area. But then, as I worked in more and more businesses I've been an entrepreneur for just as long, longer at this point and the more I worked in business I was like, okay, why aren't people applying this to business? Like, why aren't we looking? Business is another relation. That's a relationship. You have a relationship to your business. If you're in the business of people, which a lot of us are, me and you are that's all relationship building, and every good business owner will tell you that most of business is relationships. It's networking, it's all these relational tendencies. Right, it's building a team. We have all these conversations around, even in corporate spaces, around what is the company, values and the culture, and, and those are all relationship conversations yeah but relationships are built on vulnerability and so you can't have one without the other.
Speaker 2:And it was this huge act of like, oh, but we don't do vulnerability in business spaces. And I was like, okay, but do we do relationships in business spaces? Because if so we have to learn to do vulnerability in business spaces and that really kicked off the majority of my work now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's fascinating for me to hear you say this out loud, because it really did feel like that 10 to 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's when my journey in business really started, cause I mean, in high school I didn't know what an entrepreneur was and I never heard of it you just go get a job.
Speaker 1:Then when I realized what that was, I was like, oh, that sounds really nice, that sounds like fun, let's go give it a shot.
Speaker 1:But I really don't think that we consciously thought of it as a relationship business, whereas now we're actually seeing the trend of even products being like relationship businesses, where we're framing physical products as a relationship and within the context of relationships that these influencers or marketers have with their audiences and storylines, which was a big component of the space that I was in with you, which was telling stories, sharing stories, right, and really how powerful that is in terms of that connection piece of feeling like we're seen and we belong and we're understood, especially when we're in this space of social media giving us so much access. And also I don't feel more connected than ever. Ironically, it's like, oh, there's, there actually is this disconnection, and there's so many options and how do I find the one that is for me, and it usually comes down to what is the one that makes me feel most seen, most heard, most understood, and that's relationships. Right, it's like who do you partner with? You? Partner with the person who you feel most seen, heard, understood and probably loved unconditionally, hopefully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who do I like the most? It was really, like you know, like we, we do this constantly and we always have you know, and I love that you brought up influencers, because it is really interesting to look at, like how someone who's trying to sell a product will bring in an influencer to talk about that product, because you know, like connectors, because that's really what they're so good at.
Speaker 1:They're so good at making you feel seen, understood and connected with in the way that you need that. Right Cause, not every influencer is going to resonate, but there are the ones where, even even me, I'm like oh my gosh. Yes, Right, I can imagine us having lunch together, I can imagine us being friends in real life and that's fun. But but the question that I have now is okay. So we have a frame within which we can see relationships and vulnerability are very important for business, for our life in general. Right, there's that study that's like people who live longer reportedly just over their lifespan have better quality relationships. Higher quality relationships have the direct influence on health, physical health, mental health, all of that. So how do we do it, jen? How do we get?
Speaker 2:vulnerable. How do we do it? The basics of vulnerability is the thing that you don't want to say. You have to say it. That's basically it, that it's that simple, like it just is horrible, like you know, and there's a much you know. Of course there's so many more layers, but it's like, what is the thing that you think that you can't say?
Speaker 2:And it's not always what we think that we can't say, because we have these lovely strategic brains that like to have 1 million different strategies and ways to tell us to not do things particularly vulnerable. And so sometimes, for some people it's I can't say that. For other people it's no one would want to hear that that doesn't matter. Well, that's stupid, that's basic, that's not important enough, not unique enough, it's not worth saying. Everyone already knows that no one would want to hear that. That's embarrassing, it's bad or wrong. Sometimes it's bad or wrong, sometimes it's just like, oh, it's just not interesting or funny. Yeah, you know, like we have a million different frames of I can't, I shouldn't say that, but ultimately, almost always, underneath that is just a like fear of what happens if I do say it and people don't like it and therefore me.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, my goodness, I really pray that everybody took notes of all those prompts you just gave us so generously of. I shouldn't say that, right, I can't say that. It might be dumb if I say because I relate to all of those and even I feel like my defense mechanisms personally got so good that it would not even register as a sort of starter line anymore. I would just dismiss it, yep. And so part of my unlearning right, of that defense and that shielding, has been like Wait, why did I just dismiss that? Bring it back into the room, let's sit with it. And I liken it to my process with vulnerability and I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker 1:But my process of vulnerability is really like my toddler, my three-year-old. He's got this bucket of Hot Wheels right and like monster truck cars and motorcycles and right like he's my planes, trains and automobiles, kid, and so like when we get to playing, he'll be like mom, where's my orange motorcycle? And I'm like I have no idea, you have a hundred of them. And so he takes the whole bucket out and he dumps it Right and it makes this clanging noise and it's like messy and my mom organized brain goes like, oh, my God, I'm going to clean this up in like 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:But that's sort of what my process looks like. When I'm processing something and working in, my vulnerability is like I've got to dump it all out and then I can sort through it and then I can like make sense of it, and then I can actually see a thread of the real truth, a thread of the heart truth that I call them tender truths. Right, that we're like so protective of, of like, oh my gosh, when it feels like taking your shirt off, when you say it out loud, you of like, oh my gosh, when it feels like taking your shirt off, when you say it out loud, you're just like, oh, I'm so exposed, right, but it doesn't feel good until you complete that whole process.
Speaker 2:I think we want to feel good and I totally get that. Of course we all want to feel good, but I liken a lot of my work to physical, like processes, because I think you understand that and it's like you want the feeling of having I know you're a runner like yeah, I'm not, but like you want the feeling of having crossed to the finish line.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a marathon, but, like, no one wants to do the training, oh yeah, yes, like, and you know, or to push through at, like, mile 10, when you're like, I don't want to do another 14 miles. This fucking sucks, and yes, and it feels horrible and I'm tired, you know.
Speaker 2:And the good parts come after the difficult parts for sure and that's just actually how life works, and I, to be honest, I really these days frame it as, like that's what maturity is. Oh, I love that. Like that's what it means to be an adult. Like a kid doesn't do that, because there's a level of immaturity that is appropriate to a child. There's a level of immaturity that is appropriate to a child. But as adults, we're actually meant to have developed the resiliency and the ability to be in discomfort and not quit, and a lot of us didn't have that modeled in healthy ways. We had unhealthy ways, but we didn't have that model in healthy ways. We didn't have the skills taught to us, we it didn't come naturally for us, and so that can be really hard. But like that's a skill that is worth learning because it will change your life If you can learn how to be in that discomfort and do the parts that don't feel good, so that you can have the amazingness on the other side.
Speaker 1:For sure, and, oh my gosh, I love that visual of the child, right, who doesn't yet know impulse control? Or who doesn't yet know healthy regulation? No, healthy regulation. And then, over time, it's like it really is. Like, once you know it, you are now to practice it and to embody it and to grow into it.
Speaker 1:And because I think when we're younger we're not really aware of depth, right, so we're aware of like connection, need, survival instinct, and then, as we get older, we actually do crave a depth. And especially I'll speak for myself one day, when I hit 35, it was like the bottom dropped out of my world and I would have told you I was a very together woman at 35, like things were rocking Right. I was like married to my husband who's incredible. We were expecting a baby, like it was just like this all is exactly what I wanted and I feel like my life is demoted from an identity perspective. And now the bottom has fallen out and I feel like I'm back at ground zero.
Speaker 1:And what's really going on, and what was really going on that I uncovered right through doing my dumps and like sorting through everything and finding the through lines and the tender truth is that there was this craving for a depth that I hadn't experienced before and that was emotionally, and that was with regard to connecting with my family, my parents, right I. It was no longer let me get the business revenue, let me get the material things, let me get the car, let me get the home, let me get the look. It really became about how do I move in a way that creates these beautiful organic moments between people and amongst people and in my daily experience, that I can't order off of Amazon, that I can't bottle up and take as a supplement every morning? Like that's what it became about. And and the only way you get there, jen, I'm sure you know, is with vulnerability. Right, like vulnerability is a ticket.
Speaker 2:It's the only way you get there, right. It's intimacy, it's vulnerability, it's like that is depth and and you know and I think I don't think that you're alone with that like moment of like, wait, something's off. And you know, I think for a long time we've just labeled that different things, right? We've labeled that the midlife crisis. We've like even like like the menopause journey for women, right? Oh my gosh, yeah, so much of that. Is that wake up of like what is this? There's gotta be something more to life on that emotional lens, the physical symptoms, I think, really wake up. And we know this, we know this to be true. We have so many studies and facts and numbers that say that you know adults 40 past, right, like there's a lot of different points in which this comes on for different people, but I do think all of it boils down to is this it? Oh yeah, it boils down to is this it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, oh for sure. Where's the depth, where's the connection, where's the realness that in a perfect world like that wouldn't happen, because we would have been developing it our whole lives. But for those of us who weren't and we're maybe a little bit more in that, achieving me to like achievement focus, like there's that wake up call that's just like we've got to do something about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and really the depth came in that space and my husband and I had really been working on it early on because we were, of course, opposite attachment styles. I'm like the avoidant, I lean more avoidant, he leans more anxious and so once we figured that out, then we had to, like, learn how to argue right, because if not, we weren't going to make it, and we decided we really wanted to make it. So we learned how to disagree and how to navigate that. And then you know, when I hit 35, and then you have, like this I had this just divine concoction of like you're just going to be reborn because you're going to step back from your business, which my identity was very tied to at that period of time in my life. You're going to have this baby, which, again, another huge portal leap. You're going to get married to the man of your dreams that you like is so a part of your dreams. You didn't even know it.
Speaker 1:And then, like, just all of these wonderful things which I, I have this belief that answered prayers are just as dysregulating as unanswered prayers, in moments where it's like we still get to regulate ourselves and grow into that, and it was really like, okay, so we went from learning how to disagree to learning how to utilize and leverage conflict as an opportunity for greater intimacy. And I have seen you and I've only seen you really, jen bring this forward, which is so timely, just from a social perspective, a cultural perspective, right Of like this idea and I think it's a truth. But you know, this idea that maybe rupture, maybe conflict is actually really good for us and maybe if we could, if we knew how to lean into it, something might come of it that's better than we might've imagined. Can you speak more to that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely I think.
Speaker 2:I think this is such an important part of vulnerability, right, Because and I understand why it scares people so much because we all have most of us have some level of relational wounding and attachment wounding.
Speaker 2:And even people who are pretty securely attached, like there's still moments where it's like, oh, this is really scary, right, Connection pretty securely attached, like there's still moments where it's like, oh, this is really scary, right, we lose connection. And conflict and rupture is where we're most likely to lose connection and that makes it very vulnerable inherently and scary. But I really have seen that conflict and rupture is an opportunity for the most growth, intimacy and connection that, like, we ever experience and when we think about it, it's just an opportunity to get to know someone better. It's an opportunity to see them in a different way, to be seen in a different way, to connect at a deeper level, to understand someone a little bit more. It's a great opportunity for us to look at what's happening for us rather than just kick the responsibility off to someone else Like why did that thing that was actually pretty small, even if it didn't feel small to me create such a big reaction inside?
Speaker 1:of me.
Speaker 2:So it's also a huge invitation for self-relationship and self-healing and self-intimacy, and I think conflict is how we actually build strong relationships. I always say you don't really know what kind of relationship you have with someone until after the first major rupture or conflict.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:And then you figure out who they really are and how strong that relationship really is.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it's like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yes, because and I really, really really relate to this because my idea is, like you actually don't know who you are until you've been tested, until you're faced with uncertainty, you realize how attached you are to an outcome, how emotionally invested you've been, how in control you thought you were, only to have this moment of realizing you're totally not and who are you going to be? Right, and like that whole idea of like when you squeeze an orange, you don't get apple juice, you get orange juice. And so like, when you're squeezed, what comes out, you know, and oh, it's so humbling At least in my experience. It's so humbling because it's so dynamic, right Like there are times when I've been squeezed and I'm like, oh, that came out. I get to look at that now I'm not so proud of it. Maybe there's some shame in there, maybe there's some embarrassment in there, maybe there's some guilt in there, and I get to clean that up right Now that I know that it's there. I get to clean that up and really come into alignment with myself and honesty with myself and others. And then there's other times where I'm squeezed and I'm like that's gold, that's so beautiful, that's gold. I've grown, you know, like I'm so proud of me and who I've become, and and so it's.
Speaker 1:It's really dynamic and and I love that, that idea that, like the conflict is not just about the other person and what they've done and the actions that they decided to take or not take right. It's also about what in me is not okay with this and what about my thinking has says this is not okay and what is this bringing up for me and what are the feelings here and what you know because the greatest moment of vulnerability is when my husband makes a move and I feel emotionally injured and I personalize it and project it onto him rather than taking full accountability of this is what's happening in me and I would love to understand more about what unfolded, because I feel scared, I feel nervous, I feel like what if you leave? Or what if I leave? Because I feel so scared that I don't want to bring it to you right, avoidant, because I don't want to bring it to you, because I don't want you to know that I could be weak in any kind of way.
Speaker 1:And, oh my gosh, that practice, that ability, has created a dynamic where people do say to us like I want what you have, I want what you guys have. And it's like such a beautiful thing to hear and it also, in the same breath, is like your metaphor earlier of like, maybe you want to run that half marathon, but like, dang, you got to get through mile 10, girl, like you got, like it's coming for you and like, will you be able to be with the discomfort, will you be able to be with the weekly runs that you get to do and be bored and be in pain and be sore and be you know, because that's what's required of to create that. It's a part of the alchemy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think this is the thing where it's like I mean conflict. I love that like squeeze analogy, and it's like All the things you said, though, are really vulnerability, like, right, the things that feel embarrassing, the things that feel shameful, the things that cause guilt yeah, all is vulnerability, but also, on the other side, the things that cause like pride and like joy and a sense of accomplishment that is usually equally vulnerable for people to be seen in that and to not frame it in a certain way and to not try to manipulate it or adjust it for an outcome that's really vulnerable.
Speaker 2:And so you know, like if conflict is the like, is this beautiful thing that squeezes out vulnerability in us? It's like it pushes us through to these next levels. If we can do it, if we don't shut down, right, yeah, If we can build the emotional resilience sometimes they're referred to as like emotional cardio right, it's like you don't just get up and run the half marathon, no, Like you'd start by walking around the block a couple of times and like doing a mile, you know, but you know what's so funny, jen, I have to confess, is that I've done that before, and it was in the time of my life when I was not practicing vulnerability, right, I was unwilling to feel weak, but I really was that woman that was like I'm just going to sign up for a half marathon.
Speaker 1:And then I felt awful, right, because I wasn't practiced, so like I did it and I finished it, but I was like a zombie, death, walking and out for a week and just like so it can be done, and it it can also be done, like my most recent one, where it was like I feel fantastic, like I'm in the gym the next day, I'm not sore, I feel good. So that context is so critical of like that emotional resiliency. And then also and you've probably seen this in your work with clients too is that knowing of self is so important in this as well, because it's like the example that I'm thinking of is like the way in which we communicate, and especially in relationship and in business, because you'll have these moments with clients where you're like oh, I don't want to lose the client. I got to face off with this, but I don't want to lose the client. But if I don't speak my truth and I collapse and I doormat.
Speaker 1:Now I'm the enabler. Don't speak my truth and I collapse and I doormat. Now I'm the enabler. Now I'm the one that's created the codependent dynamic with this client or this contract or whatever it is, and that's not an integrity right and that's also not for the best outcome for anyone in this situation. So it's so important that we know who we are and what we're about and what we stand for and our principles, and that we lean into those and like I see it as almost like anchoring into those and really staying with them as we navigate this vulnerability right as we go into this space of maybe conflict or resolution or rupture, whatever it is, because that's the come from right. It's like who we be and who we're committed to being in these places and spaces where vulnerability is coming from all sides and everybody is vulnerable and everybody's feeling exposed and everybody's in uncertainty. And how do we lead in that space, you know, and I think that identity and knowing who we are and what we're about is critical to the leadership in those situations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I love, I love that you brought up like I have actually just ran the marathon, right I?
Speaker 1:don't recommend that.
Speaker 2:I guess here's the deal. It's like you can do it without the training, but it's harmful. Oh yeah, totally. There's harm. That is done afterwards and then that oftentimes means that people don't want to do it again, which is what happens a lot of times with vulnerability and conflict. They don't know what they're doing, they, like, don't have any resiliency, there's no cardio you can push through and force it and there's harm, there's damage, there's injury. That makes it really hard to do it again. You know, but that's why we need to have places where we are building these skills over time and bringing that awareness in.
Speaker 2:You know, I really I believe that, like, in a lot of ways I'd say like, most people don't know themselves. They know their strategies. Yes, very few people actually truly know themselves. Yeah, like, underneath all of that and and even you know, I've been doing this work for over a decade and and I feel like I've I know myself pretty well and I still am always I went to a conference like three weeks ago.
Speaker 2:Was I came out being like what the hell? This major piece of my identity I think might be wrong. I think it was a protection and like, wow, you know this huge piece of like, wow, maybe I didn't know myself fully in these ways and you know. And so when we, the more that we can do the work of self awareness and of strengthening and resilience building emotionally, the more we're able to even be aware of like, oh, I'm about ready to cross my own boundaries and leave this client, or I'm going to get defensive and be like I don't need you, whatever, leave right, kind of the opposite. Yes, rather than leaning in that we can't do conflict without those kinds of skills, and that's that's a really important part of leadership.
Speaker 1:For sure, and when you were talking about, you know, like just signing up for a marathon and having it be like potentially harmful, or leaving that experience being like I don't want to run a marathon again, like the other thing that I in that experience that I'm now aware of, is that because of my lack of training and preparation, my unwillingness that's what it was. It was unwillingness to be a part of the training and the preparation I didn't get the joy I didn't get. I mean now, at this point in my life, right, like I feel so happy, I get those moments of like the runner's high and the goodness and the community and the belonging that comes from engaging in something like this. And that's because of the willingness to build the muscles and be in preparation and really, dare I say, submit to a process of learning and unbecoming and unlearning so that I can access the truth of what lives in me and also what's created by me within me. And that's the thing that I think your work does so beautifully with people is that it gives them a really safe space to be in. That ick that is inevitable, right? I would be totally lying and a fraud if I told you that there's not going to be any ick.
Speaker 1:Yesterday I did a five-mile run and I was like ick. The first three were not cute and then the last two were pretty cute. So it's this alchemical process. You know, the first three were not cute and then the last two were pretty cute. So it's this alchemical process. But it wasn't the marathon's fault that I didn't have a good time, it wasn't the setting.
Speaker 1:Like every 13.1 miles is 13.1 miles. It's like at the gym, every 20 pound dumbbell is a 20 pound dumbbell. That's what it is. The only thing that shows up differently to the 20 pound dumbbell is me, and so like what's going on with me? And that's why I love like weight training as a life dojo, because it's like look, the weight is the same every single time I walk in there.
Speaker 1:But I am not. And so what's here for me today to get curious about? But this encouragement of? I can't tell you what vulnerability work is going to create in you or create in your life. What I can tell you is you'll be better for it and your life will be better for it, and your children will be better for it and your teens will be better for it, cause if you think that you're going to get a bunch of people in a room or you think that you're going to have a family and nobody's ever going to disagree with each other, right, and you're never going to be navigating conflict with them. You're not connected to what's here on planet earth that's happening, you know it's.
Speaker 2:I love this piece that you said around like I did the marathon, but I didn't actually get the good out of it, because I I actually think that what you just said is really profound when we apply it to life, in that I think that's how a lot of us live our lives, like check partner, marriage, kids, great job, right. Like I did it, kind of you know, quote unquote I did it, I've achieved it, yep, cause you still get to walk out of the marathon that you didn't actually have a good time at and say like I got a medal, yeah, I got a medal.
Speaker 1:It still goes on Instagram right, I did it.
Speaker 2:Right, like, yeah, it goes on Like, yeah, look at me, right, that achievement portion, but you don't get the actual internal satisfaction and all the goodness and the purpose and the alignment and the pleasure and the joy and the satisfaction and all these words that sound like buzzwords these days but are really absent from most people's lives.
Speaker 2:And and I think we can trace it directly back to I'm unwilling to do the process. Yeah, like, and it's not. To some extent, I I kind of call BS on anyone who's like I just don't know how these days you know my parents they didn't have a lot of, there wasn't a million books and opportunities, but these days and it gets everywhere, yes, this work is everywhere, it's very like top of culture, everywhere, it's very like top of culture. So the idea that we don't have access to it is not true, but the number of people who are willing to experience discomfort is still very low. Quite honestly, even in the work that we do like, even in the marketing and coaching and business entrepreneurship where, like, a lot of people are talking about these things, what I found is the actual willingness to do it behind the scenes is still rare.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I really I love the sentiment of like, if you have a phone, you have access to vulnerability work, you have access to absolutely almost anything really, if that phone has an internet connection. And it's such a different experience to know it in your head, that difference between knowledge versus embodiment, and I know it, I know it in my head, I know I'm not supposed to eat dairy, I know I'm not supposed to do this thing, and yet that embodiment of it is a whole different game, because that's when you get to really actually experience the alchemy that happens, because it does transcend the logical mind in many ways of how that could happen in my life and I would attribute it to vulnerability work or I would attribute it to coaching or I would contribute to personal development. But if you looked at it from the outside and you'd be like there's no way that personal development created that for you and I'm like well, I didn't access it without it.
Speaker 1:So I can't guarantee again, I can't guarantee you that personal development work is going to help bring you your partner or have you have an incredible lifestyle that you want or whatever that is. But I haven't been able to access all of this without personal development work. In fact, it was a key component in what I experience now, which I would consider to be really fantastic, really beautiful, and the thing that I personally am wrestling with now is like sharing that out loud, right, that vulnerability of like bringing the joy forward, bringing the. This is what's exciting for me right now. This is what's alive right now. This is what I'm really so grateful for. Like the other night, my husband and I were walking through something and we just stopped and we looked each other like we're so proud of us, like I'm so proud of us because if we had a camera crew that followed us around every single day and captured everything, like I would be so proud for the world to see it, because it's so through and through. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's so legit and, my goodness, that feels really liberating you know, and it's amazing, my, like my best friend and business partner we have like this beautiful partnership and oh yeah, and we've recently hit this kind of a similar point where it's like we're just constantly like today we're on the phone, it's like we're so proud of us, you know, like it's like this, like yes, we made it through and and while it's a like non-romantic partnership, it's funny because it went it like followed a lot of the similar pattern yeah, any marriage or partnership, and and you know so we had all these moments of like you don't appreciate me, you don't appreciate me, like I do more than you, like typical patterns, right, and to dig in and make it through to the other side, there is this sense of like this is so wildly satisfying and like anyone could film our day to day and I'd be really proud about that.
Speaker 2:And I think that there's this beautiful piece of I agree I have, I mean, a lot of my work. It feels very tangential, like I'm like people, like what do I get out of this? And I'm like you'll feel better, be happier, like everything will feel more satisfying. It's not always, it doesn't always feel specific, as you know, like business coaching or, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you can't promise that someone will have this amazing life or meet their partner. But what I do know is that if you don't do vulnerability, conflict work, if you get that quote unquote Instagram life and that partner, you won't enjoy it. If you don't have these pieces in place, it'll look a certain way on the outside and it won't feel fulfilling.
Speaker 2:It won't feel fulfilling, it won't feel satisfying, you won't feel connected, you won't, you won't be fed by it, you won't appreciate it. You know, and I think that is a really important piece of of like understanding that this is why so many people look like they have great lives. And you know, we hear all these kind of cultural stories of like oh, they always seemed happy, but they were. They were actually miserable the whole time. Or they blew up their marriage, or they were having a fair, they took their own life or any things like they were. Like, oh, I don't understand and I'm like I do. I I knew exactly what was happening in that situation.
Speaker 2:It was a lack of vulnerability.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, and what? Um. It's really heartbreaking because, again, right, when you, when you it reminds me of that there's an author, brianne West, is that her name? She wrote the Mountain, is you? It's a fantastic. I think that's her name.
Speaker 1:Anyway, she has this quote where she said you know, there are things in this life that are so good that you wouldn't know to even ask for them. And from where I sit, I come from a similar lineage of you. Right, psychotherapist to coaching to and in psychotherapy, you learn to be the blank canvas. Right, you're actually not encouraged to be vulnerable, you're encouraged to hold space, and their version of holding space is very different than what unfolds now. But I say all that to say that vulnerability work is the thing that helps you to experience the things in life that you wouldn't know to even ask for. But they show up and you're like wow, you're just astonished. Know, I experienced that quite very like whoa, you know, and that is where life becomes nourishing.
Speaker 1:And I feel like I say that to my clients, especially on like, when they're inquiring about like services and stuff, and they're like you know, what does coaching with you?
Speaker 1:Like what do we do? You know, and I'm like you really can live a life that's very nourishing, where you're actually not depleted all the time, where you aren't running on fumes and you don't have oh my gosh, I can't even think of the word, it's so foreign to me. What is it where you work too hard, burnout? Yeah, I'm like wait, where's the word? Um, that's actually not a thing. You know that's available and sometimes, when I say that, I feel people look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language. You know that's available. And sometimes, when I say that, I feel people look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language. You know it's like, oh my gosh, but it's not, it's, it's lit, it's just read it being available and willing to do the vulnerability work to unlearn and then to learn how to redesign your life according to your own unique constitution, which again confronting, and once you embody that, nobody's questioning you.
Speaker 2:It's so, you know, it's so interesting. Like we assume that life has to be all these certain ways, but it doesn't. It doesn't no way. Like I feared having a teenager for a long time because of how many stories there is about all the teenagers are the worst, but the teenage years with my daughter have been the best and we're super close and and and people hear about our relationship and they're like that's like the unicorn, right? You know that she's 17 and she still wants to cuddle with me and hang out with me. And then we have this like really beautiful bond and I'm like, yeah, but that didn't happen out of accident, that wasn't luck. Oh, yeah, that was work, that was really, really. That was a lot of work that I did and you know, and I think like we miss that.
Speaker 2:One of the things I love to say about my work is I help people get the. If I won the lottery ticket life without ever buying a lottery ticket, like, yes, and that's not the, it can look like, you know, boat trips in Croatia and like in Europe. Sure, it could, yeah, but what people really want is how they think that would make them feel. Yes, they don't actually want that, they want how they think it would make them feel and we all have access to that all the time If we're willing to be in the process and the hard and the mess and the you know the like I don't even know what I'm doing the discomfort, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like on the other side is is more than you could imagine, and that's what makes vulnerability work so special.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, my goodness. And Jen, where do we find more of you? Because I know there's going to be people listening that are like I'm ready to have more of this, I'm willing now.
Speaker 2:Social media is a great place to find me. Instagram it's Jen Underwood Leadership, Facebook. We'll put the link to my personal Facebook page where you can find my work, and then my website online, which is JenUnderwoodLeadershipcom.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Thank you so much, Jen. You're such a gift and I'm so grateful that we got to have you today. Thanks for having me. As we complete this episode, I would love to know your insights, takeaways and feedback. You can message me on Instagram at katielinrojano, or send them via email to katie at katielinrojanocom. Any products or digital downloads I mentioned can be found via the link in my Instagram bio. If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with at least one friend and leave a five-star review so we can get these impactful dialogues into the lives of even more people. I would also like to thank my guests for their vulnerability and generosity and allowing us to learn from them and grow alongside them. Until next time, friends, let's go beyond.