BEYOND
Welcome to BEYOND, the personal growth podcast for leaders and high performers who are anointed.
I am your host, Katie Lynn, and with 20 years of experience in the field of psychology and human behavior I am bringing my natural curiosity, expertise and personal life experiences here for episodes that are guaranteed to be informative, inspiring and entertaining.
I am glad you’re here, let’s get started!
BEYOND
Episode 5: BEYOND the Rules of Relationship with Morgan K
Have you ever found yourself sifting through emotional debris after a relationship ends, only to consider rekindling an old flame that once shone brighter than the rest? Join me, Katie Lynn, and my guest Morgan, as we embark on a heart-to-heart about the rollercoaster of revisiting past connections and the bittersweet ache of recent breakups. Through Morgan's vulnerable recounting, we tackle the haunting question – can we truly grow from our experiences in love, without getting burned in the process?
In our conversation, we peel back the layers of relationship patterns that sometimes feel more like unfinished projects than partnerships. Morgan opens up about her history of caretaking in love and the struggle to see her own worth beyond being a provider. Together, we confront the shame tied to our romantic histories and the courage it takes to step out of the shadow of judgment. This chapter is a candid exploration of the delicate dance between self-care and the desire to nurture our bonds, a topic that resonates deeply with anyone who has loved and lost.
As we wrap up our discussion, the concept of personal development takes center stage – it's a path with no finish line, an adventure that never ceases to challenge and delight us. We reflect on how embracing our own stories and sharing them openly not only catalyzes our growth but also empowers those around us. My heartfelt thanks go out to Morgan for her openness, and to you, our listeners, for joining us in this journey of reflection and self-discovery. Let's continue to support one another as we navigate the complexities of our hearts and minds.
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Hello, my friend, and welcome to Beyond the personal growth podcast for the people who are healing beyond their conditioning and beyond the cycles that played out before them. My name is Katie Lynn and, with 20 years of experience in the field of psychology and human behavior, I am bringing my natural curiosity, expertise and personal life experiences here for discussions that are guaranteed to be informative, inspiring and entertaining. I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 2:Let's get started.
Speaker 1:All right Morgan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. What are we diving into?
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for having me. I think what I would like to talk about has to do with the fact that I ended a relationship within the last couple of weeks and actually re-exploring the idea of that relationship, and it's bringing up a lot of old stuff for me. I think that, historically, the relationships that I've been in have felt very toxic and so reopening that door would feel very scary and I'm not having that experience this time at all, because it was probably the best relationship I've had to date experience this time at all, because it was probably the best relationship I've had to date.
Speaker 1:But I feel some some old shame coming up and like wonderings about what people will think if I do that. Yeah, what do you mean by just some clarity on reopening the door? Is it like that relationship was ending and now you're exploring the potential of getting back into that relationship? Yes, getting back into that relationship yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, okay, what sounds inspiring for you about that, about reopening the door.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I met this man close to a year ago and we really we had a really great relationship and I don't think I've ever felt as seen, as safe, as supported as I have with this person.
Speaker 3:And a few weeks ago there was just a huge breakdown in communication and I think, because I'm a coach, I was like coaching myself through it and started the grieving process before there was ever really a conversation about it, before there was ever really a conversation about it, and I was actually really I was inspiring myself at how I was handling it, because in the past I have completely fallen apart and felt like I lost my sense of self and my sense of sovereignty when relationships have ended. But I just sort of went through the process on my own. It wasn't a two, it wasn't a two person decision, it was a, it was a Morgan decision, and that line of communication has been reopened and I think what feels inspiring about it to circle back to your question is that I think he's a wonderful man and I really enjoyed the nine, 10 months up until this sort of disconnect had occurred.
Speaker 1:Are you willing to share a little bit more about the disconnect?
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely he. Since the day we met he was very transparent about the fact that he would be relocating and so very early on, we were talking about, you know, my comfort level with long distance. Like none of that was a secret. It was very open, honest, upfront. As that process started moving forward, I wasn't upset about the process Again, I knew it was coming, but I said to him wow, this is moving quite quickly. I guess we should really really discuss what this means for us moving forward right, Because before it just felt all hypothetical. Now it felt very, very real and he acknowledged me and said yes, we should, and this was in a text message. However, in that process, was really busy listing his home to sell, to make this move, and wasn't making the time for the conversation, and it triggered the shit out of me. So that's where the disconnect really really started In that experience.
Speaker 1:What did your brain make it mean the fact that he was not taking the time to have the conversation?
Speaker 3:that he was not taking the time to have the conversation. What my brain made it mean was that I don't matter and that I'm not important, and that he doesn't value me or the relationship. And is that true? No, okay, how do you know that's not true, because he's shown me that for the duration of our relationship, up until this point where I was feeling very triggered by his lack of response to my perceived timeline about how things should go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And how? What does he attribute it to Do you?
Speaker 3:know, yeah, yeah, being very overwhelmed with with his project that he needed to work through. He has said like I didn't dismiss your feelings or what you're going through, I just couldn't handle them at the time.
Speaker 1:As you consider reopening this experience with him from a romantic place, can you tell me more about the shame that you experienced? I heard you mention the word shame at the beginning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm 41 years old. I keep, I keep defaulting to 42. I'm really only 41 years old.
Speaker 3:And I guess my first relationship started when I was officially 17.
Speaker 3:So we've got about 24, 25 years in there and I used to partner with people who needed to be taken care of or who desired to be taken care of, and now I can acknowledge that one.
Speaker 3:Somehow I felt like my worthiness would be acknowledged if I was being a provider and a caretaker, and I also realized that there was, like some some trauma bonding in in those relationships, and so I would.
Speaker 3:I would tolerate really icky relationships for lack of a better word for much longer than I should have or much longer than I wanted to, out of this control mechanism of like I'm going to make this work. I, you know, like I don't know if they were projects for me and I wanted to fix them, or but I had, like this, this commitment to the relationship more than myself. Right, like making it work was priority rather than listening to myself. In that I think, in that, like commitment to commitment, I would do whatever it took to make them work, and that often included going back to situations that were incredibly unhealthy for my emotional wellbeing, maybe even for my safety. Just when I say toxic, I mean like this big umbrella of toxicity, and I would experience shame in those situations because my gut, which I'm now so much more in tune with, knew that it wasn't the right decision, and so I think there's this residual feeling of that coming up, even though my brain knows that this is not that.
Speaker 1:What are the components of this relationship that make you know that this is not that?
Speaker 3:Open communication, I mean one of the things. It's so interesting, because one of the things that I have loved about him since the day I met him was like what an excellent communicator he is, and it also was like the thing that seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back, you know, a few weeks ago. But just like an excellent communicator honest, open I have been able to share vulnerable things with him over the last year that in my past experiences would have felt very scary, like put me in this state of fight or flight because I knew that they weren't going to be received and that I would feel like my emotions weren't valid. And so I have been able to be open and honest about my feelings and leaning into my vulnerability in a much different way. That has felt very safe for me, while also having this like brilliant, talented, fun person Right. So it's like there's this emotional safety as well as like the other things that I that I seek and desire in a partnership.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely A little bit out of left field. Would you say that your past relationship experiences register as failures for you On some level? Yes, and I can say that your past relationship experiences register as failures for you.
Speaker 3:On some level, yes, and I can say that, because in a lot of ways, I don't even consider them real relationships. As years have gone by, I'm like, oh, in my mind it's like that didn't count, and I don't know if that's because my ways of being and what I qualify as a relationship has changed. However, I will also add that I have learned so much about myself through these experiences that I know they weren't for nothing. You know they were part of my, my growth and my evolution.
Speaker 1:So getting even more intimate. What are judgments that you hold against yourself in this moment about your relationship history?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I think one of the main key players in that would be that it was clear to me that I wasn't valuing myself and the partners that I was choosing, and who I am now is like embarrassed by that, so like judgment against the past version of you.
Speaker 1:If you were going to describe her candidly and your most candid experience internally, what are some of the words that come up?
Speaker 3:I'm picturing a teenage version of myself, the words okay, I was living in fight or flight, for sure, and because of that I liked to control everything. And part of me wonders now if the reason I chose these people was because I knew that I could control them, rather than like inviting someone in who raised the bar, who I might have to like answer to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That level of vulnerability and what did that teenage version of you what did? What was the thing that she wanted more than anything To be loved? Version of you. What was the thing that she wanted more than anything To be loved?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and how does that feel in your body when you acknowledge that out loud Gives me a little twinge in my belly In what way? I guess there's still some shame around that that I was willing to accept less than I deserve in an effort to be loved.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, did that version of you know what she deserved, accept less than I deserve in an effort to be loved? Did that version of you know what she deserved?
Speaker 3:I don't think so, Not on an embodied level, right. There's like, like you know, I consider myself smart, there are a lot of things that I know in my head and as I've been working through a lot over the last year it's just in like personal and professional development I've realized like, yeah, I have a lot of knowledge in my head, but it doesn't mean that I've integrated it on like an embodied level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we all can relate to that. You know, having that experience of like, I know that and I still did X, y and Z and I still did X, y and Z. What is going on? And I love that you bring that forward for us, because when I hear you share about your experiences in relationship, I feel compassion because, no matter the age, you've only ever, always wanted to be loved and that's so I think again, everyone listening can relate to that. We just deeply, even myself included, we just deeply want to be loved you know and to be loved in a way that's healthy and uplifting and expansive.
Speaker 1:And I also have a ton of compassion for where you were at that time and who you were, because she just didn't know what she didn't know about herself and about relationships and about the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as you say that it makes so much sense.
Speaker 1:I like telling stories. I feel like they land faster in the subconscious mind than like lecturing does per se. But you know, I I was married by the time I was 24 and I think I fell for divorce when I was like early on in 26. And man, that was like a tornado through my life at that period of time. As I look back on it, there were so many years after that that actually kicked off my journey in personal development.
Speaker 1:I had already been studying psychology but I thought if I studied psychology it could fix everybody else. And then I got really humbled because I was like, oh, maybe I'm the one that actually needs the help. And so that kicked off a different level of personal exploration for me and it took me a long time to forgive myself for walking everybody through that, not just me but my family and having a child. And even as I hear you talk about gosh, maybe I picked them because I kind of knew I could control them. I kind of knew at some level I had the upper hand so I could manage my safety in that way.
Speaker 1:And I very much used to choose partners in that way where it was like I'm always kind of five steps ahead, feeling really bad about that too, because that's not the woman that I know myself to be now or would ever want to have been at any point in my life.
Speaker 1:And I share this story about my history because at this moment in my healing I can look back and I can have gratitude for her because she did kick off my personal healing journey and that first marriage and divorce made it so that I felt so deeply committed to doing the inner work, that now I've created the marriage that I'm in now, which I don't know if that would have been possible, if today would have been possible, without that seven-year period, eight-year period of my life of deep exploration and work. And then it also inspired me and challenged me to break the boxes, metaphorically, of what should in air quotes, what should a relationship look like and what is the air quotes again, right time to be in relationship and what does my relationship journey need to look like in order for me to be good enough? And I'm wondering if you've ever had those kinds of thoughts as you reflect on your journey and where you are now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there is still some part of me that that doesn't feel deserving of him, of this, of this man.
Speaker 2:That's honest.
Speaker 3:That's really honest, yeah, and I, you know it's. It's as I'm thinking about that and and questioning that, it's like is there this inner child in me? That's like I'll get rid of you first before you can get rid of me, because that'll hurt less of this.
Speaker 1:I started to grieve it before it was even like final, like before there had even been an official final conversation, had or I made the decision myself and that was the thing that ended. You know, ended it. And when I hear that from as a coach, as from where I'm listening from, I hear self-protection.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I could be in control of that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, just like you said, let me. Let me push you away before you make it hurt even more, maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause it. It definitely triggered like a deep abandonment wound in me and so I can acknowledge, you know, and I've known, that that's sort of a theme for me. Last night I was, I was doing some journaling and sort of working through what I made. It mean as we, as we discussed earlier, and I was like, ooh, it triggered an abandonment wound in me that has nothing to do with him or the way he's shown up for the duration of our relationship.
Speaker 1:And that right there is really, in my opinion, what makes relationships so uniquely challenging, especially romantic relationships. We go through these cycles with our partners, not necessarily of who they are in a moment, but who they remind us of in a moment from our past, and that's how we're invited to heal is because these experiences pop up and we can default to our previous programming. We can take a split second. Right, we can take a split second and we can, to the best of our ability, presence ourselves to who we are now and make decisions now in service to who we want to become. But that requires a level of awareness that isn't always readily available in a moment, especially when we're navigating.
Speaker 1:So much sensation like fear, right Abandonment, all the memories come back. Your body goes into hypervigilance, your brain starts going into overdrive because now it's like how do I protect myself and keep myself safe and make sure that I'm stable and I'm good, and not just from a place of like you're in danger, but it's more in service to emotional safety, so I don't have to experience X, y and Z again. It's made. Your brain is making the assumption that the ending will look like all of the endings you've had before If you go any further.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, that resonates, yeah. And circling back to the other one of the other questions you asked, I don't know if I've ever really like offered compassion to the younger version of myself and her experiences, at least not maybe around intimate relationships, other things. Yeah, what might happen if you did well, I might be uncomfortable and sad, you know I, yeah, it's like digging into those, those parts of myself that felt like wounded and experienced shame and felt like I wasn't worthy. It's like again, I know now intellectually that I am and maybe there gets to be some healing, like some deeper healing, to like somatically move that stuff, because it's clearly the mirror that's been shown to me over the last week or two is that there's still some, some stuff in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and there will be just in, in honesty, when we go and we reconcile with the past versions of ourselves and the decisions that we made from the places that we were at in that moment in time, it brings up a lot of. It can bring up a lot of stuff a lot of tears, a lot of emotional discomfort, a lot of the maybe the emotions and the sensations that we don't really like to affiliate ourselves with, like, oh man, that didn't, that really was a part of me at some point in my life. Maybe it's not anymore, but maybe in my early twenties or late teens it was and and I do have some, I do have some judgment still on that, and I'm judging a version of myself that actually doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, heavily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in some ways, the inability or unwillingness to go back and and acknowledge that actually still gives her some control, because we're still living ever so subtly sometimes, through the fear of am I going to act like her again?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, cause I like I get embarrassed by her actions, right.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I can see, as, as we're talking about this, how she comes to visit and and I can see like the value in like, like re, like reintegrating her into you know, like who I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So like for the purposes of healing, so that she doesn't come out to play because she's feisty, or even if when she does right Cause there's the, the origin of healing. I think a lot of people think that the origin of healing is like so that you don't deal with it ever again, and that's not really the function of healing. The function of healing and where I come from and from what I believe in the paradigm that I teach from is that so when it does, if it ever shows up again, you won't be her, you'll be a different version of you, so you'll greet it differently, You'll engage with it differently. Right, so like in my relationship I'm sure you've heard me talk about this Um, currently with my husband is with.
Speaker 1:After the first three months we actually broke up and it was like our attachment styles bumping up against each other, hardcore. So the, the conditioned version of me says right, the, the uh, combined type that I can be from an attachment perspective, was like get out. Right, Like the avoidant took over and was like get out, this is done, push it away. Too close, too uncomfortable, too much sensation, and I got to go back and revisit that because that was the conditioning that I have until that point. But I also knew better and in knowing better, I had that choice point that we just talked about of like I can stick with my conditioning or I can choose to make a different choice and go about it differently and actually change the way that I engage with these situations when they show up.
Speaker 1:And that's what we decided to do, and it took a bit of facing off with confronting feelings, having challenging, uncomfortable conversations and intentionally designing how we would approach a situation like that when it happens again, because we have to know it's going to happen again. Like if you step back in with this man, you have to know that at some point your stance on abandonment at the current moment will be activated again and how will you navigate it and how will he navigate it. And have a designing that plan that's unique to both of you, so that you're taking care of yourself, he's taking care of himself and you both are taking care of the relationship. So, like my husband and I have a, we actually at some point we don't use it anymore but we had a script where it's like, if the temperature got too hot, this is what I need you to say to me and this is what he needs me to say to him.
Speaker 1:When the temperature gets too hot in a challenging conversation or in a disagreement, and we would pull that thing out and we would stand there and read it and it felt so childlike. Right. Would pull that thing out and we would stand there and read it and it felt so childlike right, Like halfway through we would almost start giggling because it's so juvenile in action.
Speaker 3:Right, and it works yeah, I could see how it might feel that way, but it also seems like beautifully intentional, right, like the intention behind it seems like it could be really powerful and and I think that's also a thing, right, it's like the intention is like. So often I'm like I'll just go with the flow. And that's not necessarily the empowered version of me showing up and and being really thoughtful and intentional with with what I desire.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I love that the script.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a script. And and we've heard other strategies too, like when you, when the temperature gets too hot, you lay on the floor, you both get down on your bellies and you lay on the floor and you have to continue the conversation from there, which is also hilarious. Or, uh, you put on a party hat, right, you have special like fighting hats that you have to wear and they're like silly fighting hats and you have to be, you know, continue your argument while wearing the hat. So there's these different techniques that bring us back to the present moment to realize just how silly it kind of is and how seriously and emotionally invested we've become in something. That's like when we can zoom out and get out of our big feelings.
Speaker 1:And you know, my husband and I are both very passionate people, so that passion doesn't end when we have a disagreement. You know like in many cases it like ramps up, and so you know, our biggest hurdle initially was learning how to disagree, was learning how to know that my disagreement with you is not personal, it's just something that I'm processing through and it's not an attack on you. It's me working through something and I deeply, in every moment, want to find our common ground, or our version of this and what it looks like, and that was kind of a tangent, so I want to bring it back to you. If you were going to zoom out and look at your dance and relationships so far in your life, including this one, what's the curriculum you think you're learning about you?
Speaker 3:I think a biggie for me and this shows up in relationships and in my business is like my unwillingness feels like too strong of a word, but my lack of intimacy with myself, yeah, and what's your?
Speaker 1:what's your favorite strategy to keep you from really experiencing deep intimacy with yourself and others?
Speaker 3:Staying busy, staying very busy, staying busy, staying very busy. Anything else I think, like, like, like anything concrete, like let me solve this problem, let me fill this space with a new project, let me scroll, like you know, like it's just like space filling and creating something constructive for my brain to do. So I don't have to be with my thoughts.
Speaker 1:There's one other one that I'd like to offer that I think might be a really big it might just open up a whole new world for you and that one is judgment, and not just judgment of self, but fear of judgment from others.
Speaker 3:Bingo and managing perception yes, yeah, and, and actually I mean you're right, cause that is that's been part of the shame that's been resurfacing. It's like what are other people going to think?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because what? What's the narrative? What are other people going to think?
Speaker 3:Because, Well, I mean the narrative last week when I was sharing about, or a week or two ago when I was sharing about, the relationship dissolving are on, reintegrate, like reconnecting with this person might be from other people, but I know that there's this narrative running through my head of like, what are the people? What are the people? Yes, going to think I don't even know what people, yes, but the people, yes what are they going to?
Speaker 1:think about this whose judgment is that really? My own, probably, yeah, yeah. So one of my favorite things to do well, favorite as in it's very effective. It's not that fun, but it's effective to make a list of all the judgments, of everything that people could say. And what I'm actually doing when I do that exercise is I'm putting my own judgments out. You know to, to like see in front of me and go, oh wow, look at that, look at all those, those claims that I've made against myself and that's floating in my consciousness all the time until I become conscious of it and aware of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny that you say that, because I think one of the stories that goes through my my psyche is if people break up, they break up for a reason and they they shouldn't get, they shouldn't get back together. So maybe it's this, this concern I have of what are the people air quotes going to think has more to do with the fact that, like I, have this story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if there's a story that's running somewhere subconsciously about what your life should have looked like, particularly in the realm of relationships.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it doesn't look anything like it was supposed to yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's that's where I call that. Breaking the box is like, at some point in your life could have been when you were five or 15 or 25, but at some point you decided that life was supposed to look a certain way for you. And then we grow right and we evolve and we crack up within my family. Because when I was in my late teens I was like I am not getting married, I am never having children, I am going to go get my degrees, I am going to have a bomb job. It's going to be amazing. I just showed my age, so I use the word bomb. But like I'm going to have an amazing job, I'm going to make tons of money, I'm going to have a cute dog, a gorgeous home and a nice car, my life looks.
Speaker 3:I have the home, the car and the dog and a whole bunch more, and the degrees and then that's, you know, it's like there's so much.
Speaker 1:You know it's like the what really happened is so much, uh, more dynamic than that. But I, I can sit here and look at that and go gosh. That version of me was so afraid of intimacy. She just wanted the approval of others, and that means that I was living for everybody else. I was living for the they, whoever they were, and come to find out there is no they. There was a trail of thinking that I had at that time that said, if I am good enough, then I will be loved. Yeah, and that's just not true yeah.
Speaker 1:I can relate, though, to that deeply yeah, yeah, yeah like, if you get the grades and if you get the career and if you get, if you're beautiful and dead at whatever, fill in the gap, then you will be loved and it's like, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:And you can be loved without those things too. It's not a determining factor of the availability of love.
Speaker 3:This is so good. I can't actually wait to go back and listen to it and write stuff down, take notes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for sharing all of this. I love that we got to go into the teenage version of you, the themes, the awarenesses around intimacy and judgment, and what do you feel like might be one of the bigger takeaways for you from this conversation?
Speaker 3:I think I have two things. One is that I really get to devote some time to like that inner child, inner teenage Morgan work and like really really just spending some time with her and an intentional time too, right, because it's it's so easy to be like, oh, I'm feeling triggered, let me do some inner child work, but like maybe I can spend time with her without a trigger being the catalyst for that and like create the space for that. And I think the other one and again this, this shows up in my relationships, that shows up in in my, in the work that I do, is just the other one and again this this shows up in my relationships, that shows up in in my, in the work that I do, is just that fear of judgment and like really like working with that. Um, because on an intellectual level I don't notice that as much as like I feel it in my body and the choices that I make. You know, like what am I going to share today? Who am I going to?
Speaker 3:you know, what version of people will see me. And and I noticed that show up in both my relationships and my business. And then I realized that, like I have a relationship with my business, so if I'm not willing to get intimate, you know, with with people, it's not a big surprise that I'm not willing to necessarily get as intimate with my businesses as I could.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I have some work. I have some work to do there, but it'll be fun work.
Speaker 1:It'll be, it'll be beautiful work and it's and it's the work that you'll and we will continue to do. Yeah, Like there's no, at least I haven't found it yet the, the end, you know, the finish line to it there's, there's always something more to explore, there's always something deeper to experience, and to me, at this point, it's what makes life so exciting and dynamic and beautiful. Oh, look at that. That's come back around, you know, or that's here for me to take a look at and get, even get even more intimate with. And you know, as you do this work, not only will you be liberating yourself, but you'll be giving other people permission to be liberated as well, in your presence and in your content and in your relationships. And what a gift what a beautiful gift.
Speaker 2:So thank you for being willing to do this work, thank you for your insight today.
Speaker 2:Of course, my pleasure. As we complete this episode, I would love to know your insights, takeaways and feedback. You can message me on Instagram at katielinrojano, or send them via email to katie at katielinrojanocom. Any products or digital downloads I mentioned can be found via the link in my Instagram bio. If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with at least one friend and leave a five-star review so we can get these impactful dialogues into the lives of even more people. I would also like to thank my guests for their vulnerability and generosity and allowing us to learn from them and grow alongside them. Until next time, friends, let's go beyond.