BEYOND
BEYOND
Episode 12 BEYOND Perfectionism: Embracing Growth and Healing with Rachel
What if the quest for perfection is actually sabotaging your success?
On this episode of Beyond I welcome Rachel, who allows me to coach her through overcoming perfectionism.
Raised in a highly competitive and religious household, Rachel's early experiences fueled a formidable fear of failure which manifested in her academic and athletic pursuits. From her time as a high school and college swimmer to taking on the 75 Hard challenge, Rachel's works through the anxiety and struggles that accompany a perfectionist mindset.
A pivotal moment of self-reflection in our session, sparked by witnessing a friend's consistent but imperfect efforts, sets Rachel on a path to finding joy in the process rather than just the outcome.
Explore the transformative power of mindset with Rachel as we discuss the vital differences between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. Through personal anecdotes, including Rachel's transition from military service to entrepreneurship, we examine the challenges of moving from a rigid, black-and-white worldview to one that thrives on creativity and flexibility.
Rachel shares her insights into the physical sensations linked to feelings of restriction and freedom, emphasizing the role of meditative practices in achieving peace and balance in life.
Navigating cultural identity and family dynamics further enriches our conversation. Rachel opens up about the pressures of living up to an idealized self while balancing work, self-care, and external expectations. Her relationship with her Nigerian father and the cultural complexities of her upbringing add layers to her identity. Additionally, Rachel delves into healing her mother-daughter relationship, marked by past narcissistic behavior. This episode underscores the importance of self-compassion, ongoing personal development, and the healing process within family dynamics, making it a profound exploration of overcoming conditioning and embracing transformation.
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Hello, my friend, and welcome to Beyond the personal growth podcast for the people who are healing beyond their conditioning and beyond the cycles that played out before them. My name is Katie Lynn and, with 20 years of experience in the field of psychology and human behavior, I am bringing my natural curiosity, expertise and personal life experiences here for discussions that are guaranteed to be informative, inspiring and entertaining. I'm glad you're here. Let's get started. Today we have Rachel on the podcast. Rachel, thank you so much for being a guest. I'm so grateful to have you here. My question for you is where would you like to begin?
Speaker 2:I think, the place that I'd like to begin. First of all, thank you so much for having me on the show. My pleasure.
Speaker 2:The place that I would like to begin. I'm always called to childhood. Whenever I think back on my story and it's because I connected a lot of the dots in my life to specific instances in childhood. And when I think about this pattern in my life of fearing failure as much as I tell myself that I'm not afraid of it it's more like this deep-rooted subconscious thing and I think back to myself as an athlete and I think back to myself as this highly competitive child.
Speaker 2:I was in something called junior Bible quiz. I was raised up in a highly Christian family. My dad was a pastor and so competition was such a main part of my childhood and with competition it was always this wanting to be the best and be perfect at things. And I remember I was homeschooled when I was younger, up until eighth grade. I didn't want to be homeschooled that long. I actually begged and pleaded to go to public school for probably starting in fifth grade, maybe before that, but my mom wasn't comfortable sending me to public school. A lot of nineties parents got advice from other nineties parents because the internet wasn't really a huge thing back then, and a lot of the moms were saying like nope, public school is not it, and so she didn't send me to public school.
Speaker 2:But I can remember when I first started attending public school and the anxiety that came around perfection and the simplest of assignments, like I think my very first assignment in eighth grade was you know, take this, whatever we did today, come up with five questions and bring them back tomorrow. And I remember crying that evening about wanting to make sure that I got it perfect and get it right. You know, even as an athlete, just feeling this extreme validation when I felt like I hit this pinnacle of my career as an athlete in what I deemed to be perfect and people really validating me, I had a lot of that external validation of, oh, you're so strong, you're so good at this, you're so good at that. And then that kind of all came crashing down my senior year of high school when my body just kind of failed me as an athlete and looking back now I understand why I wasn't really putting in the effort. I kind of leaned into that like, oh, I'm just naturally good at this and I stopped putting in the same effort that I put in to get to where I.
Speaker 2:Where I got to, I was a swimmer most of my high school career and my body failed me and I did not go out of high school swimming the way that I thought I was going to. I went to state my sophomore, my junior year and then my senior year. I had to make a really tough decision of get this pity spot or allow someone else to. That worked really hard and is good enough quote unquote good enough to take this spot instead and I ultimately chose to allow someone else to take that spot instead and and I ultimately chose to allow someone else to take that spot for me and it was really hard for me to deal with and I don't know that I ever really fully dealt with that mental aspect of failure in my head. Um, cause, I kept pushing and trying to make this athlete thing happen and kept telling myself in my head that I was really good.
Speaker 2:I went on to be an athlete, a college swimmer, at the University of Northern Iowa the next year and I didn't even really I finished the season but I didn't really finish out the year with that group of girls and and I think that was the key moment in my life where I started to tell myself wow, you're the kind of person that doesn't finish things. You're the kind of person that if it's not perfect, we're just not going to do it at all, and I didn't notice that pattern. Then there's still parts of that that I very much noticed leach into my life today. An example I'll use is I just started doing the 75 hard challenge a few months ago. I got 30 days into it and because I didn't hit that perfection because that's really what 75 hard is about Honestly- I stopped.
Speaker 2:And I had another friend of mine that also did 75 hard around the same time and I saw her in this probably a month and a half into her journey and she looked amazing and I was like, wow, you look really great. 75 hard must be doing like really good things for you. And she's like, I'll be honest with you, I didn't do everything right. She's like there are days when the workout wasn't outside, there are days when, you know, I didn't fully drink the gallon of water a day and I was. I remember looking at her and thinking like, wow, she just did the thing every day even though it wasn't perfect and she got results from it. Like why can't I do that?
Speaker 2:And I have such a hard time with just like letting go of that. And there's been times when I thought that I let go of that. But it's such a deep rooted thing into my being and almost as much as I hate to say it, almost who I am is feeling like it has to be perfect. And so with that, when I take on tasks or I take on things, I'll often at the very beginning, like run into it full force, headfirst and then, you know, hit that burnout because I'm still in this place where I'm trying to figure out the joy in the process and knowing that not everything's an instant gratification.
Speaker 1:Oh, you speak to my soul and my spirit. I'm like receiving everything that you just shared, and I'm so grateful that you shared it all because, being an athlete loving the competition, would you say you love the intensity.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Loving the intensity and and having this super dynamic role in your childhood, as not just being a young girl within a family, but being the daughter of a pastor, being in situations where we might say that how you were perceived by others mattered more so than maybe your average kid. Yes, so all of these things combined, plus any, we all come in with like inborn qualities. So if you had this natural inborn quality of just being highly sensitive to your environment or highly sensitive to the perception of others, or maybe even a little bit anxious a lot of us who are athletes have this like hardwired kind of anxious edge where and it's an edge and it can benefit us and then it can also backfire on us. So like managing that as a thing. As I listen to your language and the words that you use to describe your situation, I'd like you to share a little bit with me about what you know about mindset work.
Speaker 2:It was probably 2020 when I really started deep diving into the world of personal development and more about mindset, and so I do know that the way that we talk about situations and things it matters. The way we talk to ourselves matters. Our mindset about situations matters so much.
Speaker 2:But I think the lens that I really looked through mindset work on was the lens of, like, the people who had made it the very successful people, your billionaires your millionaires you know the people who you only see like the good part of their life, and so I think that's for me is where that huge disconnect when it comes to mindset specifically lies is. You know, I don't see myself at that pinnacle, and so you know again it goes back to the whole root of this conversation.
Speaker 2:Right Is like a bit of comparison there. Yes, and mindset work has helped me in a lot of ways. I mean that there there are ways that I do catch myself, or people in my life will catch me saying things and correct that, and I appreciate that. So I understand the context of mindset. I would say that I'm not fully there, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So okay, brilliant, beautiful. So let me clarify something with you, just to make sure I'm understanding Are you saying that the people who are highly successful have mastered their mindsets?
Speaker 2:That's yeah. That's the crowd that I have been around as far as like YouTube and masterminds and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, great, I want to flesh out mindset a little bit, just for context for you, but also for people who are listening to this, because there is a wonderful researcher named Carol Dweck who is the champion of studying mindset and writing about mindset, and there's basically two different types of mindset. There's what she calls a growth mindset, which I'm sure you've heard of on the Instagrams and the social medias. Right, you want a growth mindset. You're like what the heck is that Growth mindset? And then there's a fixed mindset, and what I hear in your language when you speak is the sneaky development of a very fixed mindset. And the fixed mindset says if I can't win, I'm not participating. And the reason that that can be so challenging is because we really get to ask ourselves this powerful question, and I'm going to ask you this powerful question who decides what perfection is I do? So what would inspire you to continue to set yourself up to fail?
Speaker 2:That's a good one. I don't know if I know the answer to that question.
Speaker 1:So let it just percolate. You don't have to answer it.
Speaker 1:Let it just simmer because you hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago when you were like it's almost like an identity. That's really what I hear. The way that you speak almost affirms that the identity of failure has been internalized. And what I mean by that is, when we internalize and establish an identity, we write the quote, unquote script of our environmental experience to affirm that identity. So if somebody hands you a paper that you did in school and it has a C on it, what does that mean about you?
Speaker 2:My immediate thought is that means I'm a failure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but if somebody hands somebody else a paper that says see on it, maybe that person goes. I'm going to go talk to the teacher and see how I get better, see what changes need to be made, see where I missed the mark so I can get an A next time.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because when you said someone hands someone else a piece of paper, my mind didn't actually go there. My mind went to that very black and white, like you know how. There's the students that they got to see and they're like I just don't care Cool.
Speaker 2:And they throw the paper out, and I think that's my school self. That's where I really struggled. Was that it felt so black and white, yeah. And when you talk about life experience affirming, I mean we chatted a little bit before we started recording. I was in the military for six and a half years, which is also a very black and white organization, and so when I stepped out of the military and my biggest struggle with building business was getting out of this black and white mentality because it is very difficult to be an entrepreneur and have a black and white mentality- yes, it is.
Speaker 2:That's why I say like it's such a roadblock for me that I know would be life-changing to be able to move past that. But when something is so ingrained, it's like sometimes like I don't know that I know how to move past that. But when something is so ingrained, it's like sometimes like I don't know that I know how to move past that.
Speaker 1:Move past what.
Speaker 2:This feeling of the world's so black and white and I either have to be this or have to be that. You mentioned Carol Dweck. I actually have her book. I haven't read it yet. Maybe that should be the next thing. It's one option for sure.
Speaker 1:But I give that for context because especially those of us and I put myself in this pool who are what others might call high achievers very intelligent, very intellectual we like to understand things. I want to know why and how and what and where right, like I want a 360 view of the whole thing. And so I like to give that context because for me it makes it more digestible and it's like, oh, I get it.
Speaker 1:The light bulbs are going off now, so I share that first. The question that I have that sort of keeps coming back to me is like when you think about something being black and white, what feeling does that evoke for you in your body?
Speaker 2:restriction.
Speaker 1:And where does that show up in your body? Right, I would say like center of my abdomen, so right below where my ribs yeah, and okay, let's just like sort of snapshot that and put it to the side for now because we're going to bring it back up. Okay, if I hand you a blank canvas and four different colors of paint and two paintbrushes and I say, rachel, paint a picture, what feeling comes up in your body?
Speaker 2:a bit of of hesitation.
Speaker 1:Where does that show up?
Speaker 2:That's more of my chest.
Speaker 1:Anything else, any other sensations.
Speaker 2:A bit tense. And where does that show up? That's more in my upper body.
Speaker 1:I hold a lot of tension in my shoulders when you know, yeah, a lot of tension in my shoulders when you know yeah. So we have the sensation in sort of the upper belly right when you think about black and white, and then we have the sensation in your chest and in your shoulders when we have the more gray creative, you have freedom. So what scenario brings peace to your body?
Speaker 2:I would say the most peaceful moments for me are when I become very meditative and I'm I can kind of turn off the world A lot of times in the nighttime. I'm very much a night owl. It seems like the world has slowed down and I love those moments where I can just be very internalized with myself and either throw on some headphones and a guided meditation. It's just me, at peace and not having to worry about all the fluff of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And where does the peace show up in your body if you tune into it?
Speaker 2:In my heart.
Speaker 1:So would you say, you have an internal dialogue.
Speaker 2:Yes, I do.
Speaker 1:Okay. So my question is at night, are you sort of taking a break from the world, or are you taking a break from your internal dialogue?
Speaker 2:Ooh, I'm taking a break from my internal dialogue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, amazing. I'm grateful that you give yourself that peace. Yes, there's that distinction, because I call this the governor. Lot of us have this sort of governor archetype that is shouting orders and criticisms and shoulda, woulda, coulda, did, I, will, I, can, I sort of statements, and we get to be super honest with ourselves about who is in control. What would you say has been running the show up until now?
Speaker 2:I definitely don't feel like it's been me. I think I search for a lot of external not only validation, but just external and so I find myself, at various points in life, grasping for, like the next person that has a mentorship thing or something that can help me move into the person that I think I need to be. And I think it was a few months ago that I really realized that I was having a bit of an identity crisis and the person that I thought I was in my head wasn't quite matching the person that was presenting every day to everyone else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Can you describe this person to me?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the person that I created in my head is, you know this person that wakes up five o'clock in the morning every day, has herself put together. By put together, I mean dressed nicely, um, business casual, um, hair always done, makeup done, um, you know, has a clean house. I think I would describe it as this cookie cutter idea of what I thought perfection was, um, and, and maybe in some areas still do. You know this person who is very successful in my own definition of successful, you know, has this incredible network business built up, you know, is enjoying the time freedom and I did have the time freedom when I got out of the military.
Speaker 2:All I had was time freedom, but I found myself most days just not using my time efficiently.
Speaker 2:And so, instead of me being in control of my day and you know, let's use time efficiently so that I can enjoy the rest of this time without the stressors of everything built up in my head, built up in my head I found myself oftentimes really either doing nothing or almost intentionally wasting time to wait till the very last minute to do the things that needed to be done.
Speaker 2:But I was telling myself that, oh well, we're getting the things done and externally, I'm getting this validation from people right, like the people around me that see me. They're constantly like, oh, you're doing so much, You're doing all these things, like you're doing great things for the community and and and I don't know how you do it all. And I almost hate hearing those words because it validates the person that when I go home at the end of the day I know I'm not, I'm not living to my fullest potential, I am not taking care of me in the way that I need to be taking care of me. And so I know there's a fine balance between work and self-care and you know others and you know those I'm sure you've seen like the balance wheels that ideally you know everything is like balanced out very well, and for me they haven't been balanced very well for quite some time. But people don't see that that the external validation piece oftentimes just kind of like boosts an ego that doesn't need to be boosted because it's not really helping me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really, I really hear all of this. How was your?
Speaker 2:relationship with your father. So my father's from Nigeria, we. So I'll go back to my childhood, first of all because the relationship has changed throughout the years several times. My dad worked a lot when I was younger and so he was really only in when he was in and then, you know, he had his time to himself, watched the news a lot. What I really valued the most with my father was the times that he would take me and my sister to the park when we were younger, which wasn't like a regular thing. But there were a handful of times that really stick out in my mind and I really cherish those.
Speaker 2:I really wanted to be close with my father and I felt that we were close when I was younger. Looking back, were we that close? Probably not, but that is what I created in my head when I left the state that I grew up in and my father still lives there. It's just kind of a phone call every once in a while and I wouldn't say that it really has ever been super close and isn't now. But I do love my dad very much and I think that's what drives that like the wanting of closeness. To give a little bit of context, nigerian culture is very different than American culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what I struggled with the most is I'm the second born out of four girls.
Speaker 2:Nigerian culture very much values the first born and it was very obvious when I was growing up. I'd say still to this day it's still very obvious and Nigerian culture just kind of puts a different how do I word this A lot more conservative, At least it was a lot more conservative than American culture, and so that was one of my struggles growing up too and I'd say there's a little bit of resentment there. My parents are not together anymore. They divorced around the time that I was 17, 18 years old I think, when they started that process and a lot of what my mom brought to the family was okay. Well, I want to respect this Nigerian culture that I don't know, that my dad really fully cared that much if that culture was fully brought to light. I haven't had that conversation with him yet, that piece of this Nigerian identity that I very much resented when I was a child, because I was a mixed girl growing up in Iowa which was a lot of white people that made fun of me for that side of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think as a child I carried a piece of resentment for that. I don't resent that now. I think we live in a world now where cultures are more openly embraced, but back then they just weren't so kind of an interesting relationship. It wouldn't say that I felt like it was ever bad, but I don't know that it was what I needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how's your relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2:So my mom and I recently started talking two, three years ago after not talking for like six years, and she was very narcissistic when I was growing up and that was kind of the hesitation of reconnecting on that relationship. It was not great when I was a child and it wasn't my entire childhood.
Speaker 2:It was, I think, between the chaos of four girls, my mom having to go back to work, and then I've put a lot of puzzle pieces together and talking to her about like why were things this way when I was a child and she's answered a lot of those questions for me to have a better understanding of this wasn't my fault. She was in her own crisis mode and I was just kind of seeing the aftermath of that, and so for me, that experience was very healing. Will we ever be super, super close? I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know what I saw with my friends in my life and what I saw with other people with their mom, or even I'll use my husband, for example, the relationship that he has with his mom, where they can be more open and have adult conversations together and not feel uncomfortable. I just don't really ever feel like I can have those conversations with my mom because there was so much judgment and um, discipline and anger behind a lot of those things that like I just needed someone to support me and love me and understand me when I was a teenager and going through these formative years of my life. But a lot of times it was. I don't believe you, um, or you're in trouble for this, and so that very much shaped, shaped a lot of who I am today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was the swim competition where your body I'm going to use your words failed you Was that around the same time as their separation.
Speaker 2:It was a year prior, so my senior year of high school is when my body was failing me. It wasn't working. My hand just couldn't pull through the water like it used to be able to. It just like was not catching water. I still, to this day, don't exactly know the mechanics behind it, but it was probably a few months later that my mom told me that she was leaving my dad.
Speaker 1:So very close very close yes. Very close. Okay, is that interesting to you? It is now that that's really stands out to me as I listen to the timeline of all of this and almost like your body felt impending, let's say like fracture to the family you know, um.
Speaker 1:so it's interesting because in our healing journeys we get to take the opportunity, if we choose to, to become who we needed when we were little. So the governor that we just spoke about metaphorically, that like rules the mind for you and then the body kind of follows, was that the? Is that the voice of your mom?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. Maybe I've never really thought about that no-transcript.
Speaker 1:There's some internalized qualities there and, especially if there was any kind of narcissism or codependency, you're so connected to you, even if maybe that feeling is not there, because earlier you said you know, I was kind of having this identity crisis. And when we come out of dynamics like that like codependency, narcissistic, any type of substance abuse, anything like that we actually don't get to develop an identity as children. We acclimate in a way to appease the center person Right, and the center person for us as children is usually the parent who is more authoritative and has most control. So it sounds like you've spent 20 something years, 30 something years, being who you needed to be for your parents and your family, and that was very, very black and white. Black and white. You do this, you don't do that. You do this, you don't do that. And now you almost are like wanting to play with some gray, but that feels very anxiety inducing, Like the body literally almost goes into freeze when we tuned into it and you were like I feel it in my chest, I feel it in my shoulders.
Speaker 1:So, as you go forward, I'm going to encourage you to explore the power process which is my signature process that you'll. I will gift it to you. You'll get an email after we wrap on this, but it's a. It's a actual 10 minute process to go through and start to untie the bind that the governor has and bring yourself into connection with your body and to really go from the fixed mindset into the growth mindset. The other thing that I would encourage you to do, if you so feel called to, is pursue failure. I have a personal trainer. He's so wise because he caught this in me, and so now do you know what he does? He sets up my workouts to failure. I will start reps on something and I'll say how many am I doing? Right, Cause my brain wants to know how many am I doing.
Speaker 1:And he goes to failure, go until you die. So he says he's ex, he's ex Marine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So go until you die and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I just love an outcome and and it's interesting because, as I speak to you again, I have so much empathy and compassion because I tell people you know, if I could get paid for going to school, I would just stay in school, because they give you the script to win the game.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Your first day of class, they gave you the outline. How do I win? Yep, and that's all you got to do. A, b, C, d.
Speaker 1:But in entrepreneurship right, which, like my husband and I, are both former college athletes, now we're entrepreneurs. Breaking that mold of being told what to do and then executing the process and now designing your process from scratch is really an exercise in how often and consistently can I bring myself to failure without abandoning the process. And that's really where the reparenting begins, because I heard you say so beautifully I really don't know if I got the love and support that I needed, and that's what the version of you that you crave to be is actually going to require. Can you learn to be because it'll be a learning the woman that says oh look, I meant to get up at 5am and now it's six. I overslept, I'm okay, it's okay. You're still going to have a great day. You didn't miss out on anything, it's all right, we'll try again tomorrow. Didn't miss out on anything, it's all right, we'll try again tomorrow. How does it feel for you when you hear that kind of talk?
Speaker 2:A lot more freeing than what I usually tell myself. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to bring up one other thing, because you talked about my body and this really resonated with me. You talked about my body and my parents' divorce and like thinking about how much my body talks to me. When I was in my last month of my pregnancy in 2021, it was December 2021. I had my daughter January 2022. I got Bell's palsy and my face was paralyzed on the entire right side and someone a former coach actually had brought up to me. She was like do you think maybe your body's trying to tell you something? Because I didn't feel like I was living in my purpose. I felt very stuck and she was like maybe your body is physically stuck because you feel stuck. It very much resonated with me when you said maybe your body was trying to tell you something back then too, because I never put that into perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've only known you for the last 40 minutes, but in my time with you I would imagine that you're very intuitive and I would imagine that you're very intuitive through your body, the power process that I told you about earlier. It has its roots in different modalities, but what makes it different than your traditional mindset work is there's a body component to it and I walked you through that piece of the body component earlier where I'm like how does that feel in your body? Because whatever you do that power process, there's two lines in there where you're asked what is the feeling? Where does it show up? Because for most of us and again as women, we're so connected to our bodies. Our bodies are part of our gift.
Speaker 1:You know our extrasensory capabilities live in our bodies and when we disconnect it almost becomes dangerous for us. It's less safe out in the world. You'll be encouraged to like really feel hmm, what is that feeling and where does it live? As you do it again and again and again, you'll also get to see that your feelings are created by your thoughts and your thoughts are informed by your beliefs. So when you talked about identity and I heard you say do I take the pity spot? And I was like my body wanted to wince. You know, as I heard, you share that, because I was like that's, that's an interesting meaning to make of an opportunity.
Speaker 1:You know, it's very telling to me of how you regarded yourself during that phase of life, because I actually do think. You see you, I think there might be happens if she has freedom. You know, what's she going to do? Is she going to go crazy? Is she going to sit on the couch all day? We don't know, right, like this, just I don't know, we don't know. And that's why my invitation, one of my invitations, is you know, power process but also pursue failure.
Speaker 1:I worked with a mentor once and he was like get in a whipped cream fight with your older son. He was like three and I was like, excuse me, that's a mess, right, that is, that is a mess. He's like no, your assignment right, that language of me, because I was responsive to it your assignment is to go have a whipped cream fight with your son in the kitchen, laugh until you cry and make a mess. And I had so much resistance. But you know what he will tell me about that memory still to this day, and it was so healing because we did, and it was so fun. I also did sit there afterwards and be like this is a mess, I have to clean up this mess, right, but also I was okay. Yeah, the fear, and I call these when I work with my clients. I call them paper dragons, cause it's just like they feel so daunting. And then you go get up close to them and you're like, oh my gosh, your paper, what was I running from you?
Speaker 1:know, yeah, so yeah, how does all this resonate with you?
Speaker 2:I love that you and I relate so much on these things. First of all, when you talked about your personal trainer and going to a failure. I even felt a bit of resistance when you were like there's no number, because I'm like what? There's no number, yeah'm like what?
Speaker 1:There's no number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there, there is so much of a bodily connection there. I'm really excited to explore more of this with a different perspective than I haven't heard ever, so I'm very grateful to you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, my pleasure. Thank you so much. This is amazing. It's going to help so many people, I know it. As we complete this episode, I would love to know your insights, takeaways and feedback. You can message me on Instagram, at katielinrojano, or send them via email to katie at katielinrojanocom. Any products or digital downloads I mentioned can be found via the link in my Instagram bio. If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with at least one friend and leave a five-star review so we can get these impactful dialogues into the lives of even more people. I would also like to thank my guests for their vulnerability and generosity in allowing us to learn from them and grow alongside them. Until next time, friends, let's go beyond.