BEYOND
BEYOND
Episode 10 BEYOND Self-Doubt: Embracing Performance and Transformation with Jane
Ever wonder how personal labels and early judgments shape our relationship to performance?
Join me as I sit down with Jane, a passionate triathlete who navigates the emotional terrain between her strengths in swimming and biking and her challenge with running. Hear me coach Jane as she battles the deeply ingrained notion of "not being good enough" contrasts her ambitious dream of qualifying for the Boston Marathon. Her candid reflections on self-doubt and perseverance offer a compelling narrative that resonates far beyond the realm of sports.
In this episode, we dissect the mental strategies that can transform perceived weaknesses into powerful assets. Listen as I work with Jane on embracing her so-called limitations and shifting her mindset from doubt to excitement. By challenging early labels and external judgments, Jane redefines her performance identity through positive reinforcement and the transformative power of authentic self-love. Don't miss this inspiring story about recognizing our true potential and the rewarding journey of pushing past self-imposed boundaries.
You can find me on Instagram @katielynnrojano
I mention my personal trainer who can also be found on Instagram @makethes.h.i.f.t.tv
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Hello, my friend, and welcome to Beyond the personal growth podcast for the people who are healing beyond their conditioning and beyond the cycles that played out before them. My name is Katie Lynn and, with 20 years of experience in the field of psychology and human behavior, I am bringing my natural curiosity, expertise and personal life experiences here for discussions that are guaranteed to be informative, inspiring and entertaining. I'm glad you're here. Let's get started. Okay, today on the podcast we have Jane. Jane, it's so wonderful to have you here today. Where would you like to begin?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. So the thing that I wanted to talk to you about today is really my. The thing that I've been working on is my identity as a runner, and what I mean by that is over, I would say, the last 20 years I've been doing the sport of triathlon. I love the sport of triathlon and I've really done a lot of work. I've gotten a lot better really in all three sports the swimming and the biking and the running. I love the sport.
Speaker 2:I have this kind of idea that I'm a I'm a really good swimmer, I'm a really good biker and I'm just okay on the run and I really want to get faster. I have a goal. I have a big goal of qualifying for the Boston Marathon. I'm running in a marathon at the end of August and the time that I need to qualify is it feels like maybe it's possible, but there's also a really big part of me that's like I don't think I can do it. It feels really hard. So there's a lot of there's just a lot of kind of like doubt and uncertainty and but I really it's a, it's a goal I really, I really want, and so that's where I am Amazing.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Congratulations First off on being a triathlete. That's incredible. Have you always been an athlete?
Speaker 2:Um, I have always loved movement. I played volleyball in high school. I tried out for the college volleyball team and didn't make the team. Uh, I did some swimming, some swim team I was. I was kind of okay. So I've always I've loved movement, but I've never really been like oh yeah, she's the athlete or the athletic one or anything like that and how do you feel about that now? I do. I very much feel like an athlete now, okay, uh, yeah, I definitely feel like an athlete now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So if I introduce you to somebody and I say this is Jane, and Jane is an incredible athlete, how does that feel in your body?
Speaker 2:Um, I would say it feels mostly true, Like I can recognize and I can acknowledge a lot of the amazing, the amazing things that I have done, but there's very much a, there's a lens of like and I think this happens in the other sports, but it's more so in running. There is like a, the familiar thread of like not good enough. It's like well, I'm not a good enough runner. Um, if you were to say, you know, I'm an amazing athlete, or even an amazing triathlete, I would, I would own most of it, but there would be this piece of me that's like, well, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Where does that piece if you pause for a moment? Where does that piece live in your body? Where does it show?
Speaker 2:up. They're not good enough. Piece. Oh, it's so familiar it lives in my chest kind of like heart, like heart, heart chest like front side, front side, front side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard you say it's so familiar. What is it tied?
Speaker 2:to. I think, I don't know that these are the words that were told me when I was younger, but the message I received was that basically nothing was good enough. I put a lot of pressure on myself, um, and I felt very judged. There was very much, you know, kind of just messages of there's right ways and there are wrong ways, and there are, you know, good things and bad things, and so I very much, um, I absorbed a lot of that and, and I think, as such, I felt not good enough in in a lot of ways. And so then, you know, always looking to do better and to do more and to achieve, but generally then, when I would achieve something, they would be like either not good enough or let's just move on to kind of like the next, you know the next, goal, for example.
Speaker 2:So even with running, I remember that I was never a runner growing up, ever. I started running after college just to kind of move and stay in shape, and I remember the first time I did a five mile run, I thought it was eternal, it was never, ever, ever going to end, and so here I'm talking about running a marathon, which I've done several times, but it's like that not good enough, right? Oh well, but I don't run fast enough. It's like that. That kind of piece in there is. I can, I can see that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to go back to this moment of the first time I ran five miles. It felt like it was eternal. Yeah, what felt like it was eternal about?
Speaker 2:that. Um, I guess the that's a good question. Um, I guess just thinking like Maybe that's a good question. I guess, just thinking like the, maybe the discomfort, like probably the discomfort of it felt like it wasn't going to end and like I was never going to, either like I couldn't handle it or I wasn't going to be able to to finish, maybe, but probably the discomfort I would guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the discomfort of the run itself.
Speaker 2:Hmm, good question. Um, if I try to put myself back into that place, you know, it's probably 50, 50, it's probably the discomfort of the run, and then also like the discomfort of the feeling like I'm not doing it well, or that it's not going like I thought it would, or I'm not, you know, operating up to expectations, or that it's probably that that part of it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a very real thing. That part of it, yeah, yeah, that's a very real thing, yeah, especially, like you said, I echo this with running. It's unique because I just completed a half marathon. It was my first half marathon in four years, I think, and I was telling my husband, you know, the first nine miles were all conditioning. That was great, great. And within the context of discomfort, right Cause as soon as you get past mile five, I think the discomfort comes up physically, I said, but mile nine to 13 is a mental battle and I caught myself even me so well-practiced right in in these practices and you know this, right, you, you work with people as well, like so well, I know this stuff intellectually and I caught my brain watching all the people running past me but forgetting to track everyone that I passed.
Speaker 2:Yes, I had. I literally had the exact same. Literally the exact same scenario happened to me in a triathlon like two weekends ago. So I for sure I for sure had that. But I think now that I'm really like thinking about, like what is it about? I am like there is, when I think about like the younger kind of like part of me that has absorbed messages that sometimes feel really hard to kind of get past, there is for sure something very tender that even as I start to think about it, I start to feel a little tears behind my eyes, in your eyes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's something that's really tender that comes up for me when I get this like sense of like I can't, it is like this, like I can't do it, I can't handle it, and I can think of several examples and it, it it's this feeling of like. It really is this feeling of kind of weakness and that's and I think I've always like I kind of like want to exude this strong person Right. And so when it feels weak or feels like I can't do it, I think there's something really tender there. And when, even if I think about like my, my, my days of like when I would binge, that would come up to like this, like I can't handle it, I can't handle this feeling, this sensation of my body, and so then the only way that I would know how to get away from that would be to binge and I, I I'm wondering if something, if there's not something similar in that like for sure, pain in that, like I can't handle it, yeah, that comes up, or even like a fear that it will come up.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to think about. Yeah Well, my question is and I love how insightful you are, it's it's really fantastic to see and to experience that I'm not good enough. I can't handle it. Who is that for? You're not good enough for who?
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever answered that question before as many times as I've said that or thought you know, had that, had that sentence, I don't even know, I don't even know. Yeah, such a good question, yeah.
Speaker 1:I call this in my work. I call this like the governor, yeah, like there's this internal governor sometimes for us where it's like who is setting the standard and for what? Who is setting the standard and for what, and is it working?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Like I could. I could answer the question in terms of my younger self, who adopted that, that sentence and that belief, like it was not good enough for my mother. But now, right, If I ask the question now, it's like not good enough for I mean, I guess maybe the expectations or the standards that I put on myself would be would be the answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a very honest answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because when it is, when we do come to the present moment, it is us yeah, especially at our age, right Like if we were six or seven. It might be mom or dad, you know. There's definitely that reality. And now that we're adults and it's like oh, it is me. Yeah, I am the one that somewhere internally, I've set this standard and I've decided that this is the strategy that's most effective in doing what.
Speaker 2:The strategy that's most effective. I mean I'm sure I utilized it to be a strategy to be most effective, to achieve, to accomplish. I mean it has been a very effective strategy with a lot of consequences. It certainly is a. It's a strategy that has produced results.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh, it's been excellent and I love that we can do this because you're a runner. It also, maybe, upon further reflection, has expired, like the pair of shoes it's got too many miles on it.
Speaker 2:They were excellent in the beginning. Yeah, and now I'm having knee pain and so I love that analogy. Oh, my gosh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and that's so true for so many of us when it comes to the strategies we developed in our younger years that really worked, they were important. We're wise beings, you know very effective, and now it's time for innovation, yeah. So if there was another strategy that might work, what could that look like?
Speaker 2:or feel like I just took such a deep breath. I love that that I can notice that my body's like really there's another strategy, there's another strategy. What might it look like? I mean, I certainly do believe and prescribe that. I have that. I have everything in me. Um, you know that there's no, there is no like thing to compare to or standard or um, you know something outside to kind of measure against um. But I think that feels like a little like, are you sure, because we've either needed external rules or external you know somebody else telling us like what to do, or validation, or you know all of that like it's that has been, you know the, that kind of has been the strategy, and so to kind of drop that as a strategy does feel a little like I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it feels a little, would you? What's the word you would use to describe that feeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels a little, would you? What's the word you would use to describe that feeling? I would say two words it's, it's almost like I mean. The word for that itself would be hesitant. It's the but. It's like hopeful but hesitant.
Speaker 1:Does the word unsafe resonate with you?
Speaker 2:no-transcript. I mean, I think if I were yeah, in some ways I was just I just had a vision of um, like I was. I was initially thinking, you know like unfamiliar, but then I, I just kind of had this vision of like um, trying to, you know, cross a cross, a bridge or cross a rope. I actually even almost had a vision of like a like on a ropes course, right when you're like trying to like get across to the other side, but then the, the kind of like your safety harness or whatever has been, you know, the external, either guidelines or expectations or rules or whatever else, has kind of been like that safety harness, and so then, um, so yeah, then I guess, if we're trying to do it without that, then, yeah, I guess it would feel a little, but that's the thing that keeps me like what's what might happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, my heart starts to race just thinking about it, right, yeah, okay, so I'm going to ask you a question that might seem totally random. Okay, let's say you achieve your goal, you make your runtime qualify for Boston, you kill it in Boston, you just do the thing. Then what?
Speaker 2:I mean, then I have, basically I have an amazing experience in Boston. Then I have, basically I have an amazing experience in Boston, uh, and then I'm sure I just decide I set some other goal that I want to do and achieve?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah. And what does that mean about you as an athlete?
Speaker 2:Um, I guess I would probably make it mean as a runner, I would make it mean that I'm I don't know, I mean here comes good enough, right, like I'm good, I'm good, I'm good enough to get to Boston, yes, and good enough to finish Boston. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So in our, in our identity work and you're probably very aware of this it's we have to be right. We always, we always have to be right about ourselves. So our brain is only ever working to make sure that we are right. So I really resonate with your story because when I was young I was told that I was not a runner. You're not a runner, you are slow. So in my athletics I put myself in positions where I didn't really have to run. I was a pitcher in softball. I did volleyball not much running in volleyball, right. So there was this identity.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And when I would run the mile in high school, oh my, I would be lucky if I beat 12 minutes and it was torture. It felt like torture in my body and now I'm almost consistently sub 10, which my brain will still say is slow for me. I still want to get faster and, however, there was a period of time where I really had to work at dropping that identity, that identity of I'm not a runner, I'm not an athlete, really Almost as if I'm kind of this fraud that, like you know, was posing as an athlete. But people are going to find out what I'm sharing this, because what is true about you as an athlete?
Speaker 2:What is true? Um, I mean, I, I really am a. I am a, I am a good athlete. I have achieved some amazing, some pretty amazing things in athletics. There are there are many people who would just listen to this and be like what I can't believe. She's even, you know, saying this or thinking this about herself, or, um sure, whatever. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So notice the little, the snapshot, notice what the brain did. Okay, I said, jane, what's true about you as an athlete? And the truth is, I am a good athlete is I am a good athlete. And then the brain segued into adding a little asterisk there and focusing itself on the judgments of others. There are people who will listen to this and say what is she talking about? She must be crazy. Yeah, why do you think your brain did that?
Speaker 2:yeah. Why do you think your brain did that? Um, well, I mean, I think the. I think two reasons. One, I think the brain is always thinking about what other people will think about us. Um, I also think that I think. I also think that the brain is is constantly comparing. So I think there's, you know, probably some comparison, um, and you know, even if, in talking about, like what you were saying about, the brain always has to be right. Um, then there is this, like there's very much, I think, with myself as an athlete and especially as a runner. It's like yeah, but okay, I'm a good athlete and I see myself as a runner and like a decent, like I'm a decent runner, but there's like the yeah, but yeah, are you, you know? Like yeah, but yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask you to do something. I'm going to ask you to go back. You said three things. Okay, the brain is always thinking about what, considering what other people think about us. The brain is always comparing. The brain has to be right. I'm going to ask you to re-say that with my, my brain. Okay, how does it feel to say my brain is always thinking about what other people think my?
Speaker 2:brain is always thinking about what other people think. I don't know that that feels true, okay, now go.
Speaker 1:My brain is always comparing.
Speaker 2:My brain is always comparing, um, not always Okay.
Speaker 1:And then my brain always has to be right.
Speaker 2:My brain always has to be right. My brain always has to be right. I do feel that that does feel true.
Speaker 1:Okay. So just notice like, wait, I just did a little my, my, my just did a little white lie Two of them. Yeah, that's interesting. My brain is not always thinking about what other people think no, and my brain is not always comparing. Yeah, that's interesting. My brain is not always thinking about what other people think no, and my brain is not always comparing no. So, huh, maybe, if that's not totally true, then what might be?
Speaker 2:I don't know where.
Speaker 1:I'm celebrating because this moment in my, in my mindset sessions with people, there's a moment where we work through sort of the quote unquote wall of the brain and we confuse it, got it and that's when we've hit success from my perspective right, Because the brain then goes huh.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm feeling right now. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:I don't, I'm, I'm beyond. My programming is what the brain does. Okay, so I work with highly intelligent women. You're highly intelligent and I say this to my husband all the time Like I'm so intelligent, I can think myself in and out of anything. Yes, and the beauty of this is I can think myself in and out of anything. So if you were going to think yourself into the runner that got the time, that goes to Boston, that does excellent in Boston, how would you do it?
Speaker 2:If I were to think my way into it, mm-hmm Well, I would certainly stop thinking that it might not be possible, or that I might not be able to do it or that it's going to be really hard and kind of be like looking at future runs or weekends or whatever with a little like dread trepidation, and what is it going to be like? I think there would be more. There would be probably more like excitement and anticipation versus trepidation, which is a little bit more of what I've been experiencing recently.
Speaker 1:Excitement and anticipation, because why?
Speaker 2:Well, because I know that I'm going to achieve a goal that I'm really excited about yeah.
Speaker 1:How does that feel in your body?
Speaker 2:Expansive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and even if it is hard, then what?
Speaker 2:I mean, well, I'm pretty sure it's going to be hard. I mean yeah, but it's going to be hard. I mean, yeah, but but the hard things really in general are the most rewarding at the end of the day For sure, and you're excellent at them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, like your track record, I do very hard things Of doing hard things is incredible, yeah, so what's one more hard thing?
Speaker 2:And with every training run that you do. From this point forward, what's happening? I'm more just living into the new identity and just building more capability of doing hard things Sure yeah, with every step. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm becoming more of a runner and becoming a faster runner. I'm becoming even better at setting goals. Accomplishing goals it's progress. Every step is progress. Yeah, how does that feel for you? Yeah, that's good. I would encourage you and invite you to um after this call at some point and before your next run, maybe pick a few mantras, mantras that you go to Right. Um, one of the ones that I use that is kind of comical is after weight training, my trainer will have me hop on the treadmill and do sprints and on leg day. This feels like climbing Mount Everest to me.
Speaker 2:I'm sure yeah, so it's like my my legs are.
Speaker 1:My brain is like can my legs do it? My legs are like we don't know. We're about to find out. But one of my mantras is I'm a professional runner. I was built for this. I was made for this. Now I'm not a professional runner, but there's something that happens in my body. My body responds to that and all of a sudden, I tap into this power source. My posture changes, my stride changes, my energy is renewed. It's incredible. So, playing with that, you know, as a technique, yeah, yeah, I just encourage you to, you know, have fun with it, yeah.
Speaker 2:I will and I do. I want to have fun with it and I I can see recently that it's, it's. I haven't been having fun with it. It's been more. Can I do it? I don't know, and yeah, so, even if, even if I don't, which I, I, I, I want to be in full belief that I will, but I no matter what happens between now and then. I want to enjoy the next two months and the training and everything that's involved in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so when that thought creeps back in, just like it just did right, even though it's subtle, because it will, and that's the humanity.
Speaker 1:Right, like I'm not going to sit here and tell you once you believe it. It's just going to be so solid and smooth. No right, it's going to be like the last. It's going to be like mile nine to 13,. You know, in the half marathon, where it's like it's you versus you and all your mental programming. So when that thought comes back in, how do you?
Speaker 2:engage with it. I think it's like, I think it's just that's, that's, that's my old, that's just my old doubt, that's just a remnant of my old doubt and you know, just kind of sweep it away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly Like. Oh, there you are, I see you. Yeah, I hear you, I'm with you, we're going anyway. Right, I liken it to the idea of like a little kid who's like oh, there's a monster under my bed.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And you're like that fear for it's very real for them under my bed, and you're like that fear feels very real for them, it feels very accurate and there's so little truth to it, right, right, and so it's like it's okay, I'm here, I'm with you, right, there's nothing to fear. We can handle anything one step at a time.
Speaker 2:One step at a time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing. Yeah, do you feel complete?
Speaker 2:The only thing that's coming up for me is like that feels a little not complete is around the. That feels a little like what do I do with this part? Is the like? The like that part that feels like really weak sometimes, you know like the kind of like like I can't do it, like I'm like I'm picturing you know a really hard workout where it's I get into that. Oh, I can't do it, and like that that week, you know kind of that part comes up. I think that's yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What is your relationship to weakness?
Speaker 2:I would say I have very much not wanted to be, to be weak, to be seen as weak, um, I think, even with my binge eating like, I very much saw it as a weakness, um, to, you know, not have control over what I was doing or what I was eating. So I do think there's a, it's something that, like, I haven't wanted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm going to do a sentence completion real quick with you. Okay, and I'm going to give you this the start of if I'm weak, then and you fill in the blank, and we're going to do this a few times, we're going to just see what pops up, no filter, no judgment, nothing, just let it float to the surface and whatever comes up comes up.
Speaker 2:Okay, if I'm weak, then if I'm weak, then I won't get what I want.
Speaker 1:And if I'm weak, then If.
Speaker 2:I'm weak, then I won't be able to handle it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to change the sentence, start a little bit.
Speaker 2:If I don't get what I want, then If I don't get what I want, then the first thing that comes to me is that I'm, I'm, I'm. I failed in some way.
Speaker 1:And then, if I failed, then what?
Speaker 2:If I failed, then I want to say I'm weak, yeah, so I guess it's a circular equation. Yeah, and are you allowed to be weak? No, I don't. I don't think I allow myself to be weak. Yeah, because, oh, I have tears coming.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, um, oh, I have tears coming. Um, I don't think this is true anymore, but what comes from, like the, the, the younger part of me, is like nobody will take care of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And if nobody takes care of me, then what? Then I would say, I'm on my own.
Speaker 2:And if I'm weak and I'm on my own, then I'm, I guess, maybe helpless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Then you're like, then you die, yeah, so can you see how your brain would really hold on to this as a protective mechanism, because if I'm weak and if I fail, then I won't be taken care of? Yeah, and I I'm wondering if, if, even if we went little bit deeper, if it's like I won't be taken care of and I won't be loved, loved, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is like, oh my gosh, yeah, so for you, now, in this moment, are you allowed to?
Speaker 2:be weak in this moment. Yeah, I do very much see like a like I can. I, you know, I can feel like the tension around the idea of like letting that, letting that go, like allowing that to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to tell you a little story, because it's subconscious. Love stories, yeah, as you reestablish and redefine your relationship to weakness. I very much have and had this pattern as well ex-Marine, super tough, super intelligent, amazing. And he caught this in me and went for it. And what I mean by he went for it is he would write some of my programming and make everything to failure and he would say go until you can't anymore go to failure. And I would be like I hate failure, I don't like failure. I have to literally walk through this end game of failure in air quotes yeah, great single set 10 to 15 times in a workout.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he said well, yeah, because failure is the only way you get better. Failure is the only way you get better. And my brain was very angry. My brain did not like that. And yet when I look back, that is the fastest way to progress. And he will tell me metaphorically die in your workouts, who cares? Give everything. You empty your tank in this hour and see what happens. And that is where I found the reserves that I didn't know existed and that was where I found progress, because they've done research I'm sure you've heard of this too and I don't know the study but they've done research where we, most humans, will stop way before we've actually met our end, and I think it's like they've. In the same research, they found that most humans had 60% more to give.
Speaker 1:So I would also invite you, as you do your mantras right, write your mantras and your runs. Yeah, I would invite you to play. Invite your weakness in as a play thing. Okay, like, let me see where is my edge and let me see if I can love myself through it. Yeah, maybe picking a movement or an exercise that you know you're not so strong at, picking a movement or an exercise that you know you're not so strong at right. For me it's pull-ups and let me add it in a couple of times a week, knowing I'm going to feel weak, knowing I will feel incompetent, knowing I will feel the judgments come up that have been programmed for decades of you should be strong enough, you should be able to accomplish this and let me see if I can love myself and stay with myself in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how does that feel? It's good. I think the, I think the invitation of creating a new relationship with weakness and you know kind of bringing that in with in a in a playful, in a playful way, you know kind of in a supportive way, um, because it very much has been like not allowed, yeah, so yeah, I think it will be obviously very impactful and required for the journey for sure.
Speaker 1:The invitation. This is how I conceptualize all the things that we do in our lives, but everything is an invitation for us to know ourselves deeper and to grow. And I said invitation now, kind of like we said earlier, where it's like, well, it's not somebody, who am I trying to prove myself to, it's my, if it's not my mom. I'm grown now, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like so whose love am I trying to get? And it's like, who's withholding love? And it's me. It's like do I want to be that woman that withholds love from myself based on my performance? And it happens so sneaky, it's so unconscious, right? We would never look at another woman and be like you don't deserve love because you can't do a pull up. You know it's like what? No way. So yeah, that's super helpful. Thank you so much, jan. Thank you, this is an incredible conversation. I'm so excited for your journey and I pray that when you cross that finish line in Boston.
Speaker 1:You've messaged me a photo or something so I can celebrate with you.
Speaker 2:I absolutely will. I will for sure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. As we complete this episode, I would love to know your insights, takeaways and feedback. You can message me on Instagram at katielinrojano, or send them via email to katie at katielinrojanocom. Any products or digital downloads I mentioned can be found via the link in my Instagram bio. If you enjoyed this episode, I encourage you to share it with at least one friend and leave a five-star review so we can get these impactful dialogues into the lives of even more people. I would also like to thank my guest for their vulnerability and generosity and allowing us to learn from them and grow alongside them. Until next time, friends, let's go beyond.